Off Topic Productions

This got mentioned in another thread but I thought I would make a dedicated post here to explain in full.

The New Vision textures undoubtedly help add a lot of detail to the maps in Deus Ex, unfortunately it also makes a lot of mapping errors alarmingly obvious. Upside down doors, major texture misalignments, book ends used for lights etc. etc.

These are things I can't alter or account for within the texture files themselves, so I need the help of a mapper - but I don't just want someone to come and fix some texture alignment issues. I could probably figure out how to do that. No, I want someone to go through each map and based on my instructions (and your own ideas) fix and graphically enhance them by using the new textures.

So, take the New York streets map. An example of changes I would ask for are:


Though there might be other cool things to add; doors on other buildings, maybe some fire escapes scaling some of the skyscrapers - that kind of thing. The problem is the original maps were very undetailed and relied on huge, repeating textures. These would need to be broken up with lit/unlit windows, ledges and the like. All of this would really help sell the environments as "lived in" spaces. This isn't a small task and would take months to complete - it's not going to be released with New Vision but as a separate, optional download.

So - if you're a mapper and have lots of spare time please get in contact with me. In the ideal situation there would be a team of us working together on this to speed things along.

The problem is the original maps were very undetailed and relied on huge, repeating textures

The engine is very limited and don't think it's going to be easy, it might take some zone separations that can affect the events in the maps or some bsp holes will apear, and i think that all the textures must be finished before you start this project. You're doing great so far.

I think it's a great idea, and something DX should have been at the start. It's pretty clear the engine can't handle too much, but a lot of it is developer deadlines and mistakes.

I'm glad NewVision isn't taking this on as its own project. Fixing the textures means you'll know where many of these errors and limitations are, so coordinating makes a lot of sense.

edit: just realized that a lot of ledges would make for funny or easier climbing.

miguel wrote:

The problem is the original maps were very undetailed and relied on huge, repeating textures

The engine is very limited and don't think it's going to be easy, it might take some zone separations that can affect the events in the maps or some bsp holes will apear, and i think that all the textures must be finished before you start this project. You're doing great so far.

Given some of the maps I've seen for Unreal or TNM I don't think it's likely that we'll hit the brick wall of node limits (I think that's what they're called?). Hopefully we can do this sort of thing without causing BSP holes or having to split up the maps. Though the majority of the textures are done so it's ok to start the project now - worst case scenario we'll need to go back to a few maps and fix a couple more texture alignments. Nothing major.

Most of the DX maps aren't anywhere close to the most complicated TNM maps. The smaller maps are probably gonna be the worst, since the rendering engine has a harder time processing lots of details crammed into a small space than it does processing a similar amount of geometry distributed across a larger area, but I think all the city maps at least could easily be ramped up in terms of detail without breaking anything. It might be an idea to start with the most important improvements and then just stop adding new things if the level starts acting up.

Yeah, I figured as much given how complicated the TNM maps are. Would UnrealEd 2 possibly be better for cramming lots of detail into a small space? I've seen some maps made for Unreal Tournament like DM_Falkenstein (and other maps made by Robert Wey) that seem to push a lot of detail into small spaces with very few problems.

Though the approach of adding essential detail then slowly increasing it seems like a good idea.

Yeah UEd2 can handle a lot more than UEd1. Lighting is a big issue, if a single light hits a lot of geometry, it'll crash the game and probably the editor - that's why the Downtown sector has that awkwardly bland blue zone lighting instead of proper high-contrast point lights.

ISTR some of the original DX maps have that problem where if you move the camera out of the world in the editor, UEd crashes because it can't render everything at once. You can recognise those maps because they're positioned in such a way that the camera is looking in the opposite direction of where the map geometry actually is, when you open the map in the editor.

At a guess... Paris Metro could be a problem since it's already fairly detailed, but it also has a lot of empty space so it could be okay. Some of the Hong Kong maps might also be pushing against the limits of what UEd1 can deal with, I'd be especially wary of putting more details into the market itself. The Canal map might also act up. But it's worth giving it a shot to see what happens

Well I recall it being posted that you can use UnrealEd 2 for Deus Ex? Does that actually work? Might be a better option to try and limit the potential cock-ups of UEd1.

All I can say is I wish this was all in the GoldSource engine

Yes there's a UEd2 hack that works for Deus Ex.

And the GoldSource engine is balls, it has fewer features, more complicated asset pipeline, and rebuilding a level takes fucking ages and ages and ages. And also, personally I vastly prefer subtractive level editing, it's less intuitive but easier and faster once you get used to it. And you get fewer damn BSP errors.

Compiling does take an age with GoldSource, but I think I'd prefer it for modding except for the hard-coded 512² texture limitation. At least with Unreal we seem to be able to break that.

But I can actually use the editor for GoldSource, I'm completely lost with UnrealEd.

I can use both, and I like UnrealEd better

And I started out with GoldSource, so it's not just about what you learn to use first.

It's probably a good thing the UDK lets you select whether you want to work in additive or subtractive though. Hooray for freedom of choice, yeah?

Honestly, it's probably just because UEd scared me as a 9-10 year old trying to make Unreal Tournament maps. I think I managed a big box with a couple smaller boxes and lots of random guns thrown around. I was 14 when I tried using Hammer, so I was able to actually use it - but I've retained an irrational fear of UEd.

There has been a lot of people in the latest months writing here to ask how it is going and how they would help if they knew what there is to do.

Now let's just hope that this request won't remain unanswered! [-o<

This could be tied into the fan patch, could it not?

I don't see why not. The changes necessary are because the original textures were misaligned, so it would fix errors for them too - plus, along the way I'd imagine we'd fix bugs like the secret door in Maggie Chow's apartment not working and maybe even adding a door to that random toilet in Area 51..