Things TNM did better then DX:HR
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- Mole Person
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Things TNM did better then DX:HR
1. Divergent paths / Metagame paths - Two totally different paths to start. Then layered side paths with a chance to see the impact. By meta-game paths I refer to when the player bypasses content to short-circuit a quest (e.g. taking the painting before meeting the kid in the bookshop) Anyhow, TNM seemed to offer numerous chances to do what you wanted when you wanted, with DX:HR often the spawns don't happen and items don't activate until the quest starts.
2. Optional Areas - While DX:HR Was amazing to behold, after a single play-though you've about beheld it all. With TNM... well it wasn't until my third time through I found the Goat City. And those sewers.... the Chinese hell for civil engineers spawned that labyrinth.
3. Introduction of characters. At least I knew everyone's name when I encountered them in TNM.
4. Terminals/Consoles/Computers - TNM crushes with it's all too numerous old-school arcade games, IRC link-ups and sheer volume of things to find on computers.
5. Easter Eggs - Well, considering they include actual painted eggs I'm not sure how this could be beat... an actual moon base level might have done it, but alas, again we only got hints in DX:HR.
Thanks for the best mod I ever played folks.
EDIT: typos
2. Optional Areas - While DX:HR Was amazing to behold, after a single play-though you've about beheld it all. With TNM... well it wasn't until my third time through I found the Goat City. And those sewers.... the Chinese hell for civil engineers spawned that labyrinth.
3. Introduction of characters. At least I knew everyone's name when I encountered them in TNM.
4. Terminals/Consoles/Computers - TNM crushes with it's all too numerous old-school arcade games, IRC link-ups and sheer volume of things to find on computers.
5. Easter Eggs - Well, considering they include actual painted eggs I'm not sure how this could be beat... an actual moon base level might have done it, but alas, again we only got hints in DX:HR.
Thanks for the best mod I ever played folks.
EDIT: typos
Re: Things TNM did better then DX:HR
First off, well... thanks. This is good for the ego
I wouldn't expect TNM's level of branching from any game. Dragon Age and The Witcher 2 both came close, but it's an incredible amount of work, and real game studios have budgets to worry about.bobtheblob wrote:1. Divergent paths / Metagame paths - Two totally different paths to start. Then layered side paths with a chance to see the impact.
I did notice this too, and I found it quite disappointing. I'm sure it saved them a ton of trouble, but it took a lot of consistency away from the game world.By meta-game paths I refer to when the player bypasses content to short-circuit a quest (e.g. taking the painting before meeting the kid in the bookshop) Anyhow, TNM seemed to offer numerous chances to do what you wanted when you wanted, with DX:HR often the spawns don't happen and items don't activate until the quest starts.
I know what you mean, and I agree, but surely you don't mean Goat City? That level is on the critical path for both storylines (you must find it in order to reach the server complex).2. Optional Areas - While DX:HR Was amazing to behold, after a single play-though you've about beheld it all. With TNM... well it wasn't until my third time through I found the Goat City.
Those god damn bosses, right? I disapprove3. Introduction of characters. At least I knew everyone's name when I encountered them in TNM.
We did have a lot of fun with that. Mostly NVShacker did4. Terminals/Consoles/Computers - TNM crushes with it's all too numerous old-school arcade games, IRC link-ups and sheer volume of things to find on computers.
Thanks for your feedback!Thanks for the best mod I ever played folks.
- TheUnbeholden
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Re: Things TNM did better then DX:HR
He probably means the real Goat City (underground part)Jonas wrote: I know what you mean, and I agree, but surely you don't mean Goat City? That level is on the critical path for both storylines (you must find it in order to reach the server complex).
"Blood is a Passion"
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Re: Things TNM did better then DX:HR
Right. I called it the Sanctem, the grand secret Goat hideout. I didn't see it my first playthrough, and was surprised on another playthrough to find a colossal area I had never seen.
I'm trying to remember how I first reacted to DX. I think it was that as DX is in the form games should be, then DX is a strong game. I think I reacted to TNM the same way. With playing more games and more time, while I forget the simplistic nuances of generic FPS plots, then wonder if DX really had everything I remember. And did TNM encompass everything I remember, from the snow ABI level to a space station to some cultist jabbering about what side I was choosing and f00ns? I get confused when I end up placing these games above the best available.
I shouldn't say, but I like threads like these partly because it makes me think critically about new games. For example, "Wait a minute, Prey didn't have any actual characters....TNM>Prey, by lightyears". I'd comment on HR, but I haven't played it.
I'm trying to remember how I first reacted to DX. I think it was that as DX is in the form games should be, then DX is a strong game. I think I reacted to TNM the same way. With playing more games and more time, while I forget the simplistic nuances of generic FPS plots, then wonder if DX really had everything I remember. And did TNM encompass everything I remember, from the snow ABI level to a space station to some cultist jabbering about what side I was choosing and f00ns? I get confused when I end up placing these games above the best available.
I shouldn't say, but I like threads like these partly because it makes me think critically about new games. For example, "Wait a minute, Prey didn't have any actual characters....TNM>Prey, by lightyears". I'd comment on HR, but I haven't played it.
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- Mole Person
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Re: Things TNM did better then DX:HR
I think had a bit of content fusion mentally with the massive Goat City / Goat Inner Sanctum. Since I botched that example so completely let me substitute Despot's Lair on a non WC play-through and the DX Editing Building with the uber stealth scenario for examples of totally optional content.
Now to the one point I hope to cast some light on, Jonas said,
The best example I know of that is close to a DX style game would be:
Vampire The Mascarade - Bloodlines. If it had a single character type the way the DX does it would be 'on par' for branching. It has seven with three of them being totally (and I do mean totally) distinct:
I was soundly blown out of the water when I played that game as a Malkavian 2.
And a second time when I played though as a Nosferatu. It's a short game, but worth a look for some outside the box thinking.
Anyhow, it's a trade off; and, as I recall from some post release analysis of TNM (if only I could recall where I saw it ) it's the strategic re-use of the most cost intensive assets that allows for quality branching development. I totally agree!
And @justanotherfan My very first reaction to TNM was profound pleasant surprise. Almost nothing is worth a second play-through and here is a game that all but demands it if you want to see the real ending.
1. Branching off the top of my head - Mostly found in Fallout games (F:1, F:2 and F:NV) with the ending slide scenarios being the actual impact. A few other branching quest/world design models: Might and Magic 7 (Elves/humans to start then good/evil later), Arcanum (This might actually have the most branching / meta gaming of anything listed). Temple of Elemental Evil also had a crazy number of branches in the interactions, even in the most mundane of NPC's. Another contender might be an ancient game called Lands of Lore 2, might give you a run for you money on branching and in game impact, you could have things play out in very different ways. For a look at branching in Space flight Sims the Wing Commander series had quite a lot of branching, often based on how a mission went, leading to different missions and even totally different final scenarios.
2. If you've never played this game and happen to decide to play though as a Malkavian this first time it's as close as I think you can get to touching the mind of a madman. Even as a meta-game play though where you know the world it's jarring on occasion trying to figure out what is being said.
EDIT: Spacing issue on footnotes.
Now to the one point I hope to cast some light on, Jonas said,
To which the Blob must reply, "I might know a few."1.I wouldn't expect TNM's level of branching from any game. Dragon Age and The Witcher 2 both came close, but it's an incredible amount of work, and real game studios have budgets to worry about.
The best example I know of that is close to a DX style game would be:
Vampire The Mascarade - Bloodlines. If it had a single character type the way the DX does it would be 'on par' for branching. It has seven with three of them being totally (and I do mean totally) distinct:
I was soundly blown out of the water when I played that game as a Malkavian 2.
And a second time when I played though as a Nosferatu. It's a short game, but worth a look for some outside the box thinking.
Anyhow, it's a trade off; and, as I recall from some post release analysis of TNM (if only I could recall where I saw it ) it's the strategic re-use of the most cost intensive assets that allows for quality branching development. I totally agree!
And @justanotherfan My very first reaction to TNM was profound pleasant surprise. Almost nothing is worth a second play-through and here is a game that all but demands it if you want to see the real ending.
1. Branching off the top of my head - Mostly found in Fallout games (F:1, F:2 and F:NV) with the ending slide scenarios being the actual impact. A few other branching quest/world design models: Might and Magic 7 (Elves/humans to start then good/evil later), Arcanum (This might actually have the most branching / meta gaming of anything listed). Temple of Elemental Evil also had a crazy number of branches in the interactions, even in the most mundane of NPC's. Another contender might be an ancient game called Lands of Lore 2, might give you a run for you money on branching and in game impact, you could have things play out in very different ways. For a look at branching in Space flight Sims the Wing Commander series had quite a lot of branching, often based on how a mission went, leading to different missions and even totally different final scenarios.
2. If you've never played this game and happen to decide to play though as a Malkavian this first time it's as close as I think you can get to touching the mind of a madman. Even as a meta-game play though where you know the world it's jarring on occasion trying to figure out what is being said.
EDIT: Spacing issue on footnotes.
Re: Things TNM did better then DX:HR
TNM had melee-weapons.
"There is a door, you will be required to get through it. If you cannot think of at least three ways to do that, perhaps Deus Ex is not the game for you. - chris the cynic
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- Mole Person
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Re: Things TNM did better then DX:HR
Heck of a good point.TNM had melee-weapons.
I had another that hit me over the head just now, and is in some ways the biggest of all.
Cost.
It's free!
And one other since I'm thinking of them - Guards monitoring camera's - Never had a game with the camera guards linked the way they are in TNM. Impressive stuff!
Edit: Typos
Re: Things TNM did better then DX:HR
TNM gives you the full compliment of rat recipes and preparation.
Growing old is inevitable.......Growing up is optional
Re: Things TNM did better then DX:HR
bobby wins the threadbobby 55 wrote:TNM gives you the full compliment of rat recipes and preparation.
Jonas Wæver
Chief Poking Manager of TNM
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Clandestine
Chief Poking Manager of TNM
I've made some videogames:
Expeditions: Rome
Expeditions: Viking
Expeditions: Conquistador
Clandestine
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Re: Things TNM did better then DX:HR
The only thing DX:HR does better than TNM is sell DLC
Re: Things TNM did better then DX:HR
Nah, DXHR is way better produced - it's much more approachable and polished. Also it has more fundamentally fun combat! The weapons are really satisfying to use
And the enemy AI is significantly better in general - it does glitch out once in a while, but nothing near as often as in TNM.
It also looks way better, is more stylistically consistent (some of our levels are far nicer and more detailed than others) and has significantly better character animation (though I'm not taking the blame for that one, we just used Deus Ex's character models ).
If I'm being honest, most of DXHR is probably better written too. We do have a lot of really really pointless stuff in TNM that should've probably been cut. It's certainly better acted, except a few noteable examples to the contrary.
And I really like the hacking minigame, I just wish it were only used for PCs, not keypads and such as well. I definitely like that you have time-unlimited access to a PC once you've hacked it, I wish we did that in TNM as well. You miss out on a lot of emails because the game doesn't give you time to read them
And the enemy AI is significantly better in general - it does glitch out once in a while, but nothing near as often as in TNM.
It also looks way better, is more stylistically consistent (some of our levels are far nicer and more detailed than others) and has significantly better character animation (though I'm not taking the blame for that one, we just used Deus Ex's character models ).
If I'm being honest, most of DXHR is probably better written too. We do have a lot of really really pointless stuff in TNM that should've probably been cut. It's certainly better acted, except a few noteable examples to the contrary.
And I really like the hacking minigame, I just wish it were only used for PCs, not keypads and such as well. I definitely like that you have time-unlimited access to a PC once you've hacked it, I wish we did that in TNM as well. You miss out on a lot of emails because the game doesn't give you time to read them
Jonas Wæver
Chief Poking Manager of TNM
I've made some videogames:
Expeditions: Rome
Expeditions: Viking
Expeditions: Conquistador
Clandestine
Chief Poking Manager of TNM
I've made some videogames:
Expeditions: Rome
Expeditions: Viking
Expeditions: Conquistador
Clandestine
Re: Things TNM did better then DX:HR
Having the dx1 stealth system for one. Did they really replace stealth with cover based shooting what the hell? I hope someone can mod that out of the game and make stealth more like dx1
- Hassat Hunter
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Re: Things TNM did better then DX:HR
That was what the printer function was for, wasn't it?Jonas wrote:You miss out on a lot of emails because the game doesn't give you time to read them
Can somebody tell me how I can get a custom avatar?
Oh wait, I already got one...
Oh wait, I already got one...
Re: Things TNM did better then DX:HR
Indeed it was, but I must admit it's a slightly inconvenient solution, and unfortunately far from all of the PCs are connected to printers.
Jonas Wæver
Chief Poking Manager of TNM
I've made some videogames:
Expeditions: Rome
Expeditions: Viking
Expeditions: Conquistador
Clandestine
Chief Poking Manager of TNM
I've made some videogames:
Expeditions: Rome
Expeditions: Viking
Expeditions: Conquistador
Clandestine
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Re: Things TNM did better then DX:HR
Yeah. One thing I have noticed in cover-based shooters as of late is the fact that the enemy force tends to yell their orders at the top of their lungs, telling you exactly what they are going to do, desite the fact that radio's have been around since the early 1920'sSteve921 wrote:Having the dx1 stealth system for one. Did they really replace stealth with cover based shooting what the hell? I hope someone can mod that out of the game and make stealth more like dx1