Things TNM did better then DX:HR

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bobtheblob
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Things TNM did better then DX:HR

Post by bobtheblob »

1. Divergent paths / Metagame paths - Two totally different paths to start. Then layered side paths with a chance to see the impact. By meta-game paths I refer to when the player bypasses content to short-circuit a quest (e.g. taking the painting before meeting the kid in the bookshop) Anyhow, TNM seemed to offer numerous chances to do what you wanted when you wanted, with DX:HR often the spawns don't happen and items don't activate until the quest starts.

2. Optional Areas - While DX:HR Was amazing to behold, after a single play-though you've about beheld it all. With TNM... well it wasn't until my third time through I found the Goat City. And those sewers.... the Chinese hell for civil engineers spawned that labyrinth. :twisted:

3. Introduction of characters. At least I knew everyone's name when I encountered them in TNM.

4. Terminals/Consoles/Computers - TNM crushes with it's all too numerous old-school arcade games, IRC link-ups and sheer volume of things to find on computers.

5. Easter Eggs - Well, considering they include actual painted eggs I'm not sure how this could be beat... an actual moon base level might have done it, but alas, again we only got hints in DX:HR.

Thanks for the best mod I ever played folks. =D>

EDIT: typos
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Jonas
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Re: Things TNM did better then DX:HR

Post by Jonas »

First off, well... thanks. This is good for the ego ;)
bobtheblob wrote:1. Divergent paths / Metagame paths - Two totally different paths to start. Then layered side paths with a chance to see the impact.
I wouldn't expect TNM's level of branching from any game. Dragon Age and The Witcher 2 both came close, but it's an incredible amount of work, and real game studios have budgets to worry about.
By meta-game paths I refer to when the player bypasses content to short-circuit a quest (e.g. taking the painting before meeting the kid in the bookshop) Anyhow, TNM seemed to offer numerous chances to do what you wanted when you wanted, with DX:HR often the spawns don't happen and items don't activate until the quest starts.
I did notice this too, and I found it quite disappointing. I'm sure it saved them a ton of trouble, but it took a lot of consistency away from the game world.
2. Optional Areas - While DX:HR Was amazing to behold, after a single play-though you've about beheld it all. With TNM... well it wasn't until my third time through I found the Goat City.
I know what you mean, and I agree, but surely you don't mean Goat City? That level is on the critical path for both storylines (you must find it in order to reach the server complex).
3. Introduction of characters. At least I knew everyone's name when I encountered them in TNM.
Those god damn bosses, right? I disapprove
4. Terminals/Consoles/Computers - TNM crushes with it's all too numerous old-school arcade games, IRC link-ups and sheer volume of things to find on computers.
We did have a lot of fun with that. Mostly NVShacker did :D
Thanks for the best mod I ever played folks. =D>
Thanks for your feedback!
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TheUnbeholden
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Re: Things TNM did better then DX:HR

Post by TheUnbeholden »

Jonas wrote: I know what you mean, and I agree, but surely you don't mean Goat City? That level is on the critical path for both storylines (you must find it in order to reach the server complex).
He probably means the real Goat City (underground part)
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Re: Things TNM did better then DX:HR

Post by justanotherfan »

Right. I called it the Sanctem, the grand secret Goat hideout. I didn't see it my first playthrough, and was surprised on another playthrough to find a colossal area I had never seen.


I'm trying to remember how I first reacted to DX. I think it was that as DX is in the form games should be, then DX is a strong game. I think I reacted to TNM the same way. With playing more games and more time, while I forget the simplistic nuances of generic FPS plots, then wonder if DX really had everything I remember. And did TNM encompass everything I remember, from the snow ABI level to a space station to some cultist jabbering about what side I was choosing and f00ns? I get confused when I end up placing these games above the best available.

I shouldn't say, but I like threads like these partly because it makes me think critically about new games. For example, "Wait a minute, Prey didn't have any actual characters....TNM>Prey, by lightyears". I'd comment on HR, but I haven't played it.
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Re: Things TNM did better then DX:HR

Post by bobtheblob »

I think had a bit of content fusion mentally with the massive Goat City / Goat Inner Sanctum. Since I botched that example so completely let me substitute Despot's Lair on a non WC play-through and the DX Editing Building with the uber stealth scenario for examples of totally optional content.

Now to the one point I hope to cast some light on, Jonas said,
I wouldn't expect TNM's level of branching from any game. Dragon Age and The Witcher 2 both came close, but it's an incredible amount of work, and real game studios have budgets to worry about.
To which the Blob must reply, "I might know a few."1.

The best example I know of that is close to a DX style game would be:
Vampire The Mascarade - Bloodlines. If it had a single character type the way the DX does it would be 'on par' for branching. It has seven with three of them being totally (and I do mean totally) distinct:
I was soundly blown out of the water when I played that game as a Malkavian 2.
And a second time when I played though as a Nosferatu. It's a short game, but worth a look for some outside the box thinking.

Anyhow, it's a trade off; and, as I recall from some post release analysis of TNM (if only I could recall where I saw it ;) ) it's the strategic re-use of the most cost intensive assets that allows for quality branching development. I totally agree!

And @justanotherfan My very first reaction to TNM was profound pleasant surprise. Almost nothing is worth a second play-through and here is a game that all but demands it if you want to see the real ending.

1. Branching off the top of my head - Mostly found in Fallout games (F:1, F:2 and F:NV) with the ending slide scenarios being the actual impact. A few other branching quest/world design models: Might and Magic 7 (Elves/humans to start then good/evil later), Arcanum (This might actually have the most branching / meta gaming of anything listed). Temple of Elemental Evil also had a crazy number of branches in the interactions, even in the most mundane of NPC's. Another contender might be an ancient game called Lands of Lore 2, might give you a run for you money on branching and in game impact, you could have things play out in very different ways. For a look at branching in Space flight Sims the Wing Commander series had quite a lot of branching, often based on how a mission went, leading to different missions and even totally different final scenarios.

2. If you've never played this game and happen to decide to play though as a Malkavian this first time it's as close as I think you can get to touching the mind of a madman. Even as a meta-game play though where you know the world it's jarring on occasion trying to figure out what is being said.


EDIT: Spacing issue on footnotes.
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Re: Things TNM did better then DX:HR

Post by Amakir »

TNM had melee-weapons.
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Re: Things TNM did better then DX:HR

Post by bobtheblob »

TNM had melee-weapons.
Heck of a good point.

I had another that hit me over the head just now, and is in some ways the biggest of all.
Cost.
It's free! :mrgreen:

And one other since I'm thinking of them - Guards monitoring camera's - Never had a game with the camera guards linked the way they are in TNM. Impressive stuff!

Edit: Typos
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Re: Things TNM did better then DX:HR

Post by bobby 55 »

TNM gives you the full compliment of rat recipes and preparation.
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Re: Things TNM did better then DX:HR

Post by Jonas »

bobby 55 wrote:TNM gives you the full compliment of rat recipes and preparation.
bobby wins the thread :lol:
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Re: Things TNM did better then DX:HR

Post by PlausibleSarge »

The only thing DX:HR does better than TNM is sell DLC
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Re: Things TNM did better then DX:HR

Post by Jonas »

Nah, DXHR is way better produced - it's much more approachable and polished. Also it has more fundamentally fun combat! The weapons are really satisfying to use :smile:

And the enemy AI is significantly better in general - it does glitch out once in a while, but nothing near as often as in TNM.

It also looks way better, is more stylistically consistent (some of our levels are far nicer and more detailed than others) and has significantly better character animation (though I'm not taking the blame for that one, we just used Deus Ex's character models ;)).

If I'm being honest, most of DXHR is probably better written too. We do have a lot of really really pointless stuff in TNM that should've probably been cut. It's certainly better acted, except a few noteable examples to the contrary.

And I really like the hacking minigame, I just wish it were only used for PCs, not keypads and such as well. I definitely like that you have time-unlimited access to a PC once you've hacked it, I wish we did that in TNM as well. You miss out on a lot of emails because the game doesn't give you time to read them :?
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Re: Things TNM did better then DX:HR

Post by Steve921 »

Having the dx1 stealth system for one. Did they really replace stealth with cover based shooting what the hell? I hope someone can mod that out of the game and make stealth more like dx1
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Re: Things TNM did better then DX:HR

Post by Hassat Hunter »

Jonas wrote:You miss out on a lot of emails because the game doesn't give you time to read them :?
That was what the printer function was for, wasn't it? :P
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Re: Things TNM did better then DX:HR

Post by Jonas »

Indeed it was, but I must admit it's a slightly inconvenient solution, and unfortunately far from all of the PCs are connected to printers.
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Re: Things TNM did better then DX:HR

Post by PlausibleSarge »

Steve921 wrote:Having the dx1 stealth system for one. Did they really replace stealth with cover based shooting what the hell? I hope someone can mod that out of the game and make stealth more like dx1
Yeah. One thing I have noticed in cover-based shooters as of late is the fact that the enemy force tends to yell their orders at the top of their lungs, telling you exactly what they are going to do, desite the fact that radio's have been around since the early 1920's
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