DX3 reviews?

[Y|yukichigai]

Just a brief update: I finished HR a few days ago finally (got lost in the PAX time warp, and work). 41 hours for my play-through, though a lot of that was obsessive-compulsive reloading of certain sections that I'd already completed to see if I could complete them better (i.e. without having to use anything but non-lethal takedowns).

The end of this game is, without a doubt, the most unsatisfying thing I have ever experienced. It's literally "here is a room; choose your ending." Not only that, the endings don't actually tell you anything, it's just Jensen justifying the choice he just made for 2 minutes over various clips of stock footage.

I don't actually feel like replaying this game at the moment. I haven't gotten that "oh man this'll be so awesome the second time around" feeling like I do after completing certain games. Having had time to think about it, I think ultimately it comes down to the fact that a second play-through won't actually reveal anything new in the game, won't give me a chance to try out anything I skipped the first time around because there was never anything I had to skip. Since there's no either-or aug choices I pretty much installed every aug worth having (if only at level 1) before I left Detroit, and I didn't skip any missions either. The only thing I could really change would be how I played, i.e. go lethal instead of non-lethal, and that doesn't hold much attraction for me since the few times I tried that it was ridiculously easy (thank you fully upgraded 10mm pistol).

If the community-made mod tools get further along I'll definitely mod the hell out of HR; I have almost a two pages worth of notes on mod ideas. Short of that I think it'll be a bit before I come back to it, unless there's some phenomenal DLC released for it.

So yes, good game all around, better than Invisible War by a great measure, but several steps removed from DX1 overall.

[Neveos]

I'm not sure, but I think Jensen actually hacks by touching or similar, cause every time you hack a computer he has to stand up and go all visible.

I entered a code on a panel while cloaked and had a cop walk between me and the panel. That I remained undetected was amazing...and hilarious.

In the cop station, I actually stacked a wall of boxes around the panel and hacked it, which actually kept the cop from seeing me. Probably the only thing immersion breaking thing I did in the game.

As for the OP (this is gonna be spoilerish, so don't like read this?):

I played the game fully stealthy on the hardest setting (i have the pre-ordered code stuff, but haven't installed it), and read and explored everything I could. I'm obsessed with real-world conspiracy theories, so I was ripping the game to shreds looking for that stuff.

Great combat/AI system. Ultra realistic combat. Really put your combat skills to the test. Boss battles would have been extremely difficult if it weren't for my tendency to hoard items which are "too good to use" (typhoon). There are some instances where the AI can be overly tricked, like luring an entire room of enemies one by one out a door to "see what's up" and nailing them. However, trying to accomplish "smooth operator" and "ghost" achievements somewhat nullify this problem because you can't even risk alerting them in any manner lest they set off an alarm.

Well balanced tech/exp system. Hacking, on the other hand, kinda became a pain. I never used the fortify thing, and I always robbed the bank out of those things. I would hack random alarm units just to get the exp. and credits it would yield.

First mission was really the only mission that felt well developed. So well developed, in fact, that it's the only mission that had a time limit. Actually made me redo the damn thing. Branched in a bunch of directions that one did.

NPCs and hubs were mega t3h suxors. NPCs were all generic. 2 dialogue lines a piece (and shit like a woman protesting augs with signs randomly turns into a pro-aug dialogue), always repeating the same damn unrealistic information. There are 2 models in the game for NPCs: male and female, basically (not counting augs and the only 2 fat ppl you meet), so you get things like: even trashy old bum women are hot (read: Bethesda). Very few unique characters. We only visit 2 hubs, twice revisited. That sucked when you find that out. I went like, "Oh fuck this." I mean, they had that reaction coming from players, they knew it, and they didn't prevent it = laziness.

Characters are incredibly underdeveloped. Pritchard is the ONLY character I (and you will probably see) could bond with. Even IW developed their main characters better than this game. You never know where Sarif is at in all of this, Jensen has no personality (even JC had more personality IMO, and this is a bad thing), Megan is completely unrelatable, Malik seems like a lesbian hipster who has something against you the whole time (no matter how good you are), basically the game helped you fall in love with nobody. People could fall more in love with silent Gordon Freeman by the end of the first Half-Life than they could with any one character in HR. Everyone in HR cannot be trusted, and maybe this is Jensen's fault, but it makes for a sucky experience. The only real relationship in this game is the one between Jensen and Pritchard, because you knew where they stood, you knew how little each knew, and you watched it play out. Despite the fact that the game focuses on personality types, and even has a gameplay mechanic for it, it fails to make the player really bond with anyone. With more levels and more interaction, sure, ok, but it was cut short.

As far as conspiracy theory goes, ok it makes some good points, and points to some interesting things: Sarif's towers are twin towers, the radio host is Alex Jonesish, they mention 9/11 a couple times, terrorism is just a false flag, secret FEMA death camps, they found positive tests for thermate in the terror attack on Sarif Industries, Global warming hoax, corporate takeover, meritocracy myths, etc. etc., but it is not on the prediction level that DX is on. Augmentation is the be all end all point of this game. Basically, as far as CT goes, it just does a good job of pointing at the first Deus Ex.

Ending(s) suck(ed). However, they all do match up with DX lore. But, basically, like mentioned earlier, it isn't a governing decision, like DX and IW, it is a decision to either cover it up, lie, lie, or tell the truth. You don't feel good about ANY of them. Jensen is incredibly detached from the ending. So you basically don't get a happy ending, and that doesn't sit well with a player, IMO. No matter which one you pick, it is about all of humanity, and it isn't about Jensen or Jensen's world, and it just kinda makes you go: ... like, what good was anything you did? I dunno how to explain it... it just coulda been more relevant to the game's world, and not a dad gum religious commercial you coulda watched on tv.

[justanotherfan]

At least stop before the summary, I give away a very important plot development there.

Aww, sorry, I had to read through it tonight. I'm wanting to buy HR, but I just can't after the fan reviews. I'll play with community mods and DLC hacked in and DRM hacked out; DX1 fans have criticisms that I'm hoping will be fixed. It'll take time, but your review is DXHR for me in the meantime.

I like how you delved into the game, living and breathing it for a short time. That's how I focus.

The ending is getting consistently bad reviews from people who know DX. DX3's endings are hamstrung by DX1, but without knowing the ending, I'm imagining it as an early design decision that wasn't revisited until it was too late in development to elaborate. To simplify/illustrate "We'll just make it XYXZ"...."Oh, the ending, put XYXZ in it so we can finish"

Thief would not allow him to think on his feet and fight his way out of a bodged stealth attempt.

Wow, in another thread recently, I mentioned this. It's why I abandoned Thief after the first level. I thought it was the most horrible stupid frustrating game. I didn't learn how to stealth, and I instantly-failed the first level for days. I hate instafail, like falling off a cliff in a platformer, or being murdered in cinematics when I give the wrong convo response. This may sound stupidly simplistic, but I hate dying. I won't accept it, and a game's disapproval makes me abandon the game.

for every NPC that scolds you for murdering enemies, there’s another NPC ready to pat you on the back for being a cold-blooded badass.

That was awesome about DX1. I fell in love with being myself in a videogame. When I wanted to fight the system, I loved being an asshole or deity in it.

The XP system sounds complex. I'd rather not pay attention to it. I don't know how I'd play; I'd either knock everyone out non-lethally, or cheat to kill everyone always to simplify.

he survived me unloading a full magazine of my upgraded combat rifle in his face

Unforgivable. A bullet can kill, and I just can't handle bosses like this anymore. I quickly realize when an opponent's mass would have been replaced by bullet lead, and hate the impossibly continuing battle. It reminds me of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 2, where bosses would glow and flash with increasing rapidity after damage. I mean, videogames must get modern already.

The final boss fight was much different and actually felt like it made pretty good use of the various augmentations and play styles at your disposal,

Sweet. For all the whining, bosses can be done "right", however right a boss can be realistically. A boss that fits the game is great.

failing a boss fight 3 times before you succeed is totally acceptable

True, but for me, unacceptable. I want to play without dying, especially on the edge of failure where I have to try as hard as I can. I don't want badly-automated AI dumbing-down a-la-MarioKart, but to succeed after trying when I can't notice the game compensating for my bad skills. It's ego, but reloading until I succeed is the game's fault.

they all died in cutscenes

I'm a nonviolent guy, so that is poison. I know it is offensive to DX fans, but to me it's arrogant, devolving DX gameplay to a generic FPS. Oh well, it just has to be overlooked to move forward.

They didn’t have to be introduced in cheesy cutscenes and they didn’t need special scripting – they didn’t even have to put up much of a fight, because no matter what, it was going to feel special

Beautiful. I know Anna and Simons and Gunther too. That meta-analysis of DX is lacking in other games and brings a tear to my eyes.

pick your way through precarious dialogue

I don't like that. Instafail ahead. I've used walkthrough conversation-trees to "get it right always" in this territory. Natural dialog is alluring, but precarious dialogue is dangerous to design.

I wasted my time and turned Adam Jensen into a pack mule...The game needs some sort of money sink, something you can buy if you have loads of money, but the lack of which doesn’t nerf you completely.

I also hate mechanics like this, and wouldn't know how to fix it without strict limitations. I'm playing Pokemon Firered, which wanted 1,000,000 moneyunits for a bicycle, which uneventfully hastens navigation, and is free eventually since it can never be bought. I'd pay. Sounds like HR needs convenience items.

It’s because I love this game, it comes so close to perfection and so close to its predecessor, which is deeply embedded in my personal identity. Any flaw I perceive in such a game will inevitably draw far more attention than a similar flaw in a worse game.

I hear myself in there, but I avoid worse games. Flaws beyond a game two sequels ago are severely disappointing. Still, it's redeeming to see a Deus Ex flag is still flying, hey? Clone games always hurt a little, but DX suggested a dream that could still be alive.

I really really love the game

Huge respect from me. My delaying is hopeful for improvement, but your review of negatives is encouraging for future development. If the future is good, you'll be working on the equivalent of the DX game I'll be playing.


I think I missed the spoiler. I prefer to read innocently, so I've probably not thought critically about details. If I play and realize I already know something, at least there's surveys out now showing that spoilers increase enjoyment. Only the dissected pilot bit was detailed, but that's it, and it sounds emotional, which is encouraging -- like how we imagined Jock exploding.
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After TNM, I see Jonas as a DX1-level developer. That's partly how I understand "I love HR to bits". Dude understands, and empathizes & commiserates, but knows.
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The end of this game is, without a doubt, the most unsatisfying thing I have ever experienced. It's literally "here is a room; choose your ending." Not only that, the endings don't actually tell you anything, it's just Jensen justifying the choice he just made for 2 minutes over various clips of stock footage.

That sounds DX2-ish -- the room where the ending is decided (a liberty island). For anyone keeping track, DX1 is also guilty. but it felt satisfying and almost linear after choices while playing. Sucks that the endings are justification, instead of inspirational quotations. I'm guessing all endings lead to DX1's plot, since everyone would be wrathful otherwise, which is well done.

I don't actually feel like replaying this game at the moment. I haven't gotten that "oh man this'll be so awesome the second time around" feeling like I do after completing certain games

I know that feeling. Sometimes I'll play again just for the missed bits, to hear an NPC say the other sentence. Without the "I want to" feeling, I won't.

If the community-made mod tools get further along I'll definitely mod the hell out of HR

Wait, huh? Really? Without an SDK, I gave up hope, A google search mentions ENBSeries improvements, but wow. A modded HR, fitting my Deus Ex Fan expectations, I'm encouraged. The engine seems like a huge step forward (although Unreal would naturally be more moddable). A Deus Ex Fan Community modification could fix the corresponding problems an FPS Fan won't notice. Godspeed.

basically the game helped you fall in love with nobody. People could fall more in love with silent Gordon Freeman by the end of the first Half-Life .

People fetishized Anna, you know? Even I felt "Oh Anna, your life choices...it's too bad". That feeling for DX characters was almost illusionary, but I'd expect it enhanced in sequels.
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Normally I'd edit sober (got me into trouble in another thread), but I'm interested in replies. Rereading this, I'm too hard on a game I haven't played yet. Anyway, Cheers

[Jonas]

pick your way through precarious dialogue

I don't like that. Instafail ahead. I've used walkthrough conversation-trees to "get it right always" in this territory. Natural dialog is alluring, but precarious dialogue is dangerous to design.

Sorry I think I gave you the wrong impression there, partially because the article is written for people who are already familiar with the system. Picking the wrong option in a negotiation conversation in DXHR doesn't mean you fail instantly, it reduces the person's "persuasion level", which is only visible to you if you have the social augmentation. If the persuasion level is too low at the end of the dialogue, or (I think) reaches the minimum limit before the end, you don't get what you came for. Sometimes that means you miss out on optional content, other times you just have to find another way to get what you need (a little B&E goes a long way).

Typically you have to pick 3 or so wrong options to suffer a premature failure, but if you balance your wrong choices perfectly with correct choices you'll have gotten nowhere and you won't have persuaded your "opponent" by the end of the dialogue. I'm not entirely clear on the math of it, especially because it's obfuscated by occasional randomisation - the same choices producing different responses the second time around, which makes it a little harder to "game" the system but also makes it easier to sit through the same conversation again if you're cheesing the quicksave.

[fantsu]

So... what??
Hacking random things like doors and alarm panels give you money? Why?

[Dragon]

Review is up on ModDB. Too long for here. Done with the game... time for un-installing to make room for better stuff.

[Jonas]

So... what??
Hacking random things like doors and alarm panels give you money? Why?

Fundamentally, Eidos Montreal have apparently seen XP as a way to reward players for doing things the hard way. So - hacking is more effort than punching in a code or password, so you get XP for hacking. Stealth is more effort than combat, so you get XP for ghosting a mission or not raising any alarms. Melee takedowns are more effort than ranged kills, so you get bonus XP for takedowns. Non-lethal weapons are harder to use than lethal weapons, so you get bonus XP for being non-lethal. Headshots are harder than perforating your enemy, so you get bonus XP for headshots.

I can't say I'm pleased with that design paradigm, but you can kind of understand their point at least.

[EDIT] Aaaaaaand I just noticed you wrote money. Well some nodes in the hacking system give you extra rewards if you capture them, usually they're a bit out of the way so taking them may be an unnecessary risk. It's not a lot of money, and it may be small XP awards or viruses instead. I guess in terms of narrative justification, all money is electronic in 2027 anyway, so... I dunno - you discover ways to siphon money off from other people's accounts to your own while hacking?

[WildcatPhoenix]

If the community-made mod tools get further along I'll definitely mod the hell out of HR; I have almost a two pages worth of notes on mod ideas.

I am almost frothing at the mouth at the idea of mod tools for DX:HR. Sadly, I don't think it's likely to happen, but my god...what this community could do if given the chance... [-o<

I missed out on the glory days of DX1 editing. Would absolutely love to see a new era where mods are coming out every other month. I have absolute confidence that there are guys on forums like this who could tell a much better story in the DX universe/make a better game than DX:HR.

[AEmer]

So... what??
Hacking random things like doors and alarm panels give you money? Why?

Fundamentally, Eidos Montreal have apparently seen XP as a way to reward players for doing things the hard way. So - hacking is more effort than punching in a code or password, so you get XP for hacking. Stealth is more effort than combat, so you get XP for ghosting a mission or not raising any alarms. Melee takedowns are more effort than ranged kills, so you get bonus XP for takedowns. Non-lethal weapons are harder to use than lethal weapons, so you get bonus XP for being non-lethal. Headshots are harder than perforating your enemy, so you get bonus XP for headshots.

I can't say I'm pleased with that design paradigm, but you can kind of understand their point at least.

[EDIT] Aaaaaaand I just noticed you wrote money. Well some nodes in the hacking system give you extra rewards if you capture them, usually they're a bit out of the way so taking them may be an unnecessary risk. It's not a lot of money, and it may be small XP awards or viruses instead. I guess in terms of narrative justification, all money is electronic in 2027 anyway, so... I dunno - you discover ways to siphon money off from other people's accounts to your own while hacking?

Also, a lot of it is to offset the substantial xp costs encurred by hacking.

It's worth the investment for the extra options, but I'm not sure you come out ahead even with all the hacking xp.

[justanotherfan]

Picking the wrong option in a negotiation conversation in DXHR doesn't mean you fail instantly, it reduces the person's "persuasion level", ...you don't get what you came for. Sometimes that means you miss out on optional content

It reminded me of those Japanese visual-novel conversation games, just not deciding the entire game. In those games, pick wrong in three questions, and the ending changes or the game could even end immediately. That's the instafail I was thinking of. I'm not sure if I'd find a way to cheat just to not miss out on content. Are people finding the conversations frustrating or natural?

The XP system sounds complex. I remember the XP-added noise being exciting in DX when entering secret areas, but I remember not paying much attention to it.

I should mention on Thief, I know I'm wrong there. DX fans are generally Thief fans. I wasn't patient enough, couldn't figure out stealth, and for a couple weeks kept being beaten to death in the shadows of the first level. I like that reaction of Spector's, to make a game where stealth is optional and stealth-failure is a different playstyle. Hitman has elements of that, where getting caught "ruins it", but he can still carry automatic weapons.

[Dragon]

Picking the wrong option in a negotiation conversation in DXHR doesn't mean you fail instantly, it reduces the person's "persuasion level", ...you don't get what you came for. Sometimes that means you miss out on optional content

It reminded me of those Japanese visual-novel conversation games, just not deciding the entire game. In those games, pick wrong in three questions, and the ending changes or the game could even end immediately. That's the instafail I was thinking of. I'm not sure if I'd find a way to cheat just to not miss out on content. Are people finding the conversations frustrating or natural?

The XP system sounds complex. I remember the XP-added noise being exciting in DX when entering secret areas, but I remember not paying much attention to it.

I should mention on Thief, I know I'm wrong there. DX fans are generally Thief fans. I wasn't patient enough, couldn't figure out stealth, and for a couple weeks kept being beaten to death in the shadows of the first level. I like that reaction of Spector's, to make a game where stealth is optional and stealth-failure is a different playstyle. Hitman has elements of that, where getting caught "ruins it", but he can still carry automatic weapons.

Conversations are not hard at all... especially not frustrating. The game shows you what it wants you to select (especially with CASIE) so you rarely mess it up. The conversations are definitely not the problem of this game, by far not.

[justanotherfan]

Cool. How's all the renaissance-ish art? I remember cracking up with this, and it was another issue before release that I haven't heard much post-release.

[EER]

Cool. How's all the renaissance-ish art?

Although that would be hilarious, there are only a few characters that are sporting ...renaissance wear... I didn't find it distracting from the game although admittedly it looks kinda weird. It's like the 80s in the future or something.

[Jonas]

I found that I got used to the renaissance streak pretty much immediately - once the tutorial level was over, I didn't even notice it anymore. Some of it is so subtle it might as well just be regular sci-fi fashion, the rest is exclusively used for people where it mostly makes sense - ie. people who would give half a shit about fashion, and might go along with whatever weird trend the 2027-equivalent of Jean-Paul Gaultier has come up with for his spring collection.

[Moonbo]

Think this review covers a lot of the things I didn't like about about HR. Mind you, HR is still a good game, but I think it hewed too far from DX's design to give the same experience to the player (which is what I was looking for).

http://gamasutra.com/blogs/EricSchwarz/ ... alysis.php