GMDXv9.0 Release

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Cybernetic pig
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Re: GMDXv9.0 Announced

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Speaking of cut content, So I'm wondering if I should remove Ford Schick from the third visit to Smugglers.

See here for the problem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miC6wJwNsG8#t=11m22s

This specific criticism, if valid, also applies to GMDX. There's a good chance it is valid, and I never was 100% confident in restoring it to begin with (shame on me), so I'd like to do something about it. In the comments section I proposed removing Shick's appearance on the third visit, but keeping him on the second:
Yeah, it's definitely possible. I'm wondering if I should remove it from GMDX, as it is one of few things I restored and indeed I wasn't 100% confident in it because of the dialogue. The dialogue is arguably spoileriffic and conflicting but the discount from smuggler's extortionate prices, the conclusion to the sub-plot, general idea of there being something more interesting in that location's second and third visit and of course, the aug upgrade cannister are all pretty beneficial *FF7 victory fanfare music plays*

What I may do is restore schick on the second visit (player gets life-long discount from Smug and Schick's dialogue here is fine), but not on the third.
Thoughts?
Made in China
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Re: GMDXv9.0 Announced

Post by Made in China »

Is it really a spoiler? He says two things to you, one of which is wrong and one of which isn't that much of a spoiler.

The wrong thing is the speculation that JC Denton is a standard for the nano aug tech, which isn't true. The standard is Paul. But due to genetics being genetics, MJ12 created a lot of modified copies of Paul (JC being one of them) to see which can be the perfect augmented agent.
This is confirmed not only by a conversation between MJ12 scientists in the MJ12 HQ (bio research division), but also by the vats in Area 51.

The not-much-of-a-spoiler one is that JC has the Gray Death, and that is the base for his augs. The reason why it's not much of a spoiler because it doesn't change whoever's using it against the populous, only its mechanism of operation - only later you learn of the complexities in manufacturing it and the VersaLife-MJ12 connection.
Cybernetic pig
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Re: GMDXv9.0 Announced

Post by Cybernetic pig »

See one of the comments on the video:
It's not really inconsistent, as JC is the first experimental clone of Paul to be successfully implanted with nanoaugmentations. While they're Paul's genes, JC really can be thought of as the new genetic paradigm.
Is that any kind of defense? Probably not.

It's spoilerrific because it can only mean one of two things: JCD is either a clone, or clones are being made of him. Of course we later find out it's the former.

So if we're not missing something it's not only wrong but simultaneously a spoiler of sorts, therefore it should be removed. It could be taken as Schick and JCD simply misinterpreting the information they have, but that also misleads the player somewhat.

It's surprising Kim Wincen is the first to actually complain about it (that I'm aware of) considering it has been in Shifter and every mod based on it for years, then in Revision and GMDX too. But I think he just may be right.
Last edited by Cybernetic pig on Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
Made in China
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Re: GMDXv9.0 Announced

Post by Made in China »

Actually, you already know JC is a clone by that point - both Lebedev and Paul say it. Heck, Paul even says he is an artificial human being as well - and while that's incorrect by the Deus Ex bible, the game doesn't really have anything to suggest otherwise (other than Paul not having a vat in Area 51).

Also, I've watched a couple of Kim's videos, and while not completely incorrect he does tend towards bashing Revision rather than analyzing. His outlook is negative from the get-go.
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Re: GMDXv9.0 Announced

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Made in China wrote:Actually, you already know JC is a clone by that point - both Lebedev and Paul say it. Heck, Paul even says he is an artificial human being as well - and while that's incorrect by the Deus Ex bible, the game doesn't really have anything to suggest otherwise (other than Paul not having a vat in Area 51).
Oh, yes. Of course.
LEBEDEV
You didn't have parents. The ones you knew were employees. You were made by a
cabal of technophiles so crazed for power that they would control not only
governments and people but the chemistry of our bodies as well.

JC DENTON
Your proof?

LEBEDEV
You're the proof. You and Paul. When you get back to UNATCO, pay attention.
Something's not right. You're really working for a group of conspirators called
Majestic 12.
It's still not a concrete answer though.

So the only possible problem here is it is wrong. Paul is the genetic standard. It could just be JC interpreting it wrongly though because at that time he doesn't know the details nor that he is a clone of his brother.

So, the big question: leave it in or remove it? We still don't know if the devs intended to cut it, or if it was an oversight. They probably did intend it though. I'm thinking I should cut Schick in the third visit, but him being there in the second is perfectly fine and highly beneficial.
Last edited by Cybernetic pig on Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Made in China
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Re: GMDXv9.0 Announced

Post by Made in China »

I think leaving both encounters in is fine - the original code suggests it's content that Ion Storm meant to place there, and both instances weren't present due to a technical oversight (IIRC - because Ford Schick is flagged as dead after being rescued).
I also think that getting the aug upgrade can from him at that point is highly beneficial, since it's just before the 'Ton escape. It's a slightly more subtle way of having ammo and medkits before a boss fight, not to mention you actually earn them by completing a side mission.
Cybernetic pig
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Re: GMDXv9.0 Announced

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Nah the code is actually open to interpretation too, despite what I said before. Vanilla code:

Code: Select all

else if (localURL == "02_NYC_UNDERGROUND")
	{
		// if you leave the level with Ford Schick, set a flag
		if (flags.GetBool('MS_FordFollowing') &&
			!flags.GetBool('FordSchick_Dead'))
		{
			flags.SetBool('FordSchickRescued', True,, 1);
		}
	}
flags.SetBool('FordSchickRescued', True,, 1);

...is the line to pay attention to. The final parameter, "1", means the flag is set to expire at the end of mission one. Setting it to expire at the end of mission 8 means he will appear in the later visits. If the devs were to remove him appearing in later missions, they wouldn't have been able to just comment/cut out the code as they'd still need the flag set for Smuggler to respond when you immediately go to visit him after rescuing Schick, so what they would likely do is change the flag to expire after mission 1 to cut him from appearing in later missions, but still have smuggler respond to his rescue on mission 1.
So it is very possible that it was intentionally cut, but it's also possible it's just a typo/oversight. Who knows...

At least I think that was the vanilla code and why he didn't appear. It was a long time ago now that I made the change...
Last edited by Cybernetic pig on Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: GMDXv9.0 Announced

Post by Made in China »

Quick change of topics - still watching Kim's overview of Revision. He had a point regarding the flag in Liberty Island, of how it's kept near the trash. He's completely correct, but this could be made into something in GMDX.

First of all, the original Deus Ex and GMDX lack the flag in front of the Statue of Liberty, and that can be edited in there quite easily I think. However, I suggest only placing the flagpole and having the flag tossed aside, with some mud texture on it. Since the Statue of Liberty has been captured, it makes sense the NSF will remove the US flag - and letting people walk over it is a common form of flag desecration.
The flag should fly on later visits, or maybe even after exiting the UNATCO HQ for the first time. I have no idea if it would look good.
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Re: GMDXv9.0 Announced

Post by Cybernetic pig »

The flag is actually a long ways out from the front of the statue and would require extensive redesign/expansion of the Liberty Island play space to attain true to life and scale implementation of it, which would be necessary because the island is reasonably true to life and scale, just not that area. It's best to leave it as it is, I think.

Also, the map is at it's BSP limits in v9.0, although that's due to some complex brushes that flesh out the underwater areas which could be removed to make way for more important above ground details, but I don't want to radically redesign any levels.

Image
Last edited by Cybernetic pig on Thu Feb 09, 2017 2:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: GMDXv9.0 Announced

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Here's what the island is like in DX:

Image

Mostly everything of the map layout is true on a very basic level, except 1/4 of the island is missing and the docks you start on are moved closer to the statue a little. If we're being anal about the flag, we should be anal about the massive area it's located that's also missing/inaccessible, and I don't really want to add that back as it'd be a drastic redesign. I usually just refine what's already there (with the very rare exception) which is incredibly difficult as it is in the case of Lib Island without resorting to making everything extremely dark to hide the lack of detail.
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Re: GMDXv9.0 Announced

Post by DevAnj »

Regarding Ford Schick, I didn't find his dialogue in the third visit particularly wrong, I just thought it was speculation. You do have a point that it contradicts the in game story though, and could be spoiling or foreshadowing just a bit too much. If you must remove him, just see how the aug upgrade reward for saving him can be re incorporated, since I do think it's a significant and fair reward.
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Re: GMDXv9.0 Announced

Post by Made in China »

I've never been in Liberty Island and I don't know what people remember of it, but the way I see it it all comes down to whether the flagpole is iconic or significant. It hasn't been mentioned much on the internet, so I don't know - someone more knowledgeable than me can say whether its worthwhile to implement it.

Still watching Kim's overview. GMDX avoided most of Revision's pitfalls, although Kim's criticizing more of the original Deus Ex than Revision.
Anyway, I've seen him play the MJ12 prison break - seemed odd to me that the guard run for the alarm once he sees JC Denton isn't in his cell and his door is halfway open. I think he behaves the same in GMDX.
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Re: GMDXv9.0 Announced

Post by RoSoDude »

As stated elsewhere, I'm still in favor of leaving Ford Schick in on the third visit. My reasoning, more concretely:

- The code doesn't seem intentional: Though there is some ambiguity, I think a scripting typo is still the more parsimonious explanation. While it's true setting the flag to 1 elegantly allows Smuggler to acknowledge your actions without summoning Schick later, I have my doubts that they would have left Schick's check in the later missions active. If he's never supposed to be around, why leave in the code that checks if he is? Of course, I don't know what the team's general approach was here, and there are a few other places where impossible actions are still acknowledged (e.g. giving Gunther the stealth pistol, getting into the MJ12 Sewer Base before talking to Smuggler, etc). Those seem more minor, though.

- There are narrative benefits to keeping him in NYC 2: Schick appearing is a nice acknowledgement of the player's actions and provides closure in NYC 2. When I first played the game, I wondered if I had actually failed the mission because I told Schick to run for it, and wasn't sure if the game needed me to accompany him or what. We agree that Schick ought to appear in NYC 2.

- Even if it was intentional, the removal in NYC 3 is on shaky grounds: The only problem with Schick returning seems to be his dialogue in NYC 3. I don't think it's inconsistent with JC's clone status and his theory about himself, and the information plays nicely into what you may have heard from Lebedev. I think the worry that he's spoiling too much is legitimate, but still, the truth about the Gray Death isn't a big reveal at the end -- it's something that you can glean incrementally and learn soon after. There's nothing definitively problematic about what he's saying. But regardless, if this was the reason he was removed, why remove him from both NYC 2 and 3? The flag could be set to 3 (I think?) so he's around for NYC 2 but not 3, and that would have solved the issue. Maybe they were worried about his presence at Smuggler's being consistent, but that's a bit fucking over-elaborate, isn't it?.

- There are narrative/gameplay benefits to keeping him in NYC 3: In addition to the nice reward in NYC 3, Schick's is an example of your actions in the earlier half of the game impacting the latter half. Paul and Jaime Reyes can show up in Hong Kong, Jaime can show up in Paris, you can meet Sandra at the gas station, etc. While most decisions only have a local impact in time, the recurrence of these characters helps make the role-playing aspects of the story shine through, and better than in many RPGs. While it's believable that Schick could have left Smuggler's before NYC 3, keeping him in actually increases believability in your presence in the world.

- Smuggler is more important in NYC 3 than NYC 2: Something to keep in mind is that many more players go to Smuggler's in NYC 1 and NYC 3 because it actually helps you with your objective. In NYC 1, you're investigating leads and purposefully sniffing out useful opportunities. In NYC 3, you can be instructed to go to Smuggler's to load up on LAMs. In NYC 2, only players who want to make sure that they're not missing anything new or want to pick something up will visit Smuggler (both are quite valid, of course). I think there's actually a loss if the only narrative payoff to rescuing Schick can come in NYC 2.

Sorry for the paragraphs, I just feel that there's a major loss here if you proceed with too much caution. I think there's more of a case for removal than I originally granted from Kim's video, but I personally think it'd be a shame if GMDX were the only major mod to not include the infamous cut in full -- not that I'm necessarily saying you should cater to the snotty fans who'll use that to claim Shifter/Revision are better (ugh, I can already hear them now).
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Re: GMDXv9.0 Announced

Post by FastGamerr »

Cybernetic pig wrote:If we're being anal about the flag, we should be anal
Yeah, anal's good.
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Re: GMDXv9.0 Announced

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Goddamn that's some high praise., more so than the usual "definitive" type comments.

But that is what I intended, in a way, and I'm glad people are recognizing that hard work. My favorite game, a revolutionary game, on some massive design-enhancing steroids...steroids that don't have negative side effects if I can help it. Game design evolution I always wanted from this genre, but instead got design devolution after Deus Ex/Arx Fatalis.

Despite all that, the majority continue to consume only what it actively marketed to them as big and shiny.
I'm putting all my eggs in one basket in the faith that fans will secure the mod's future via word of mouth. That's a bit silly as it would have to be something as revolutionary as DX itself (Deus Ex 2.0) to garner wide recognition and support via WoM alone, when it's only currently Deus Ex 1.5, but oh well, you can't have everything I guess, and I'm not extensively marketing because it's another thing I'm not qualified to do well and I hate it.
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