Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

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Cybernetic pig
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Option 2 is not logically sound because at all because you are binding scopes to a weapon, and any subsequent scopes you attach to it moves the replaced scope in to an invisible and weightless scope bag containing all previous and undesired scopes that can then be retrieved and used on that weapon only.

Option 2 is not intuitive because the player would expect a detached scope to go back into their inventory, and will be confused when it is not there.
I never stated option 2 was logically sound or intuitive. I was agreeing with you that option 1 was.
Mortecha
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Mortecha »

Cybernetic pig wrote:
The GEP issue would be a problem. Can it's scope be a seperate attachment/mod all together that can only be applied to the GEP. Once applied, it remains on it permanently (Because who carries two GEP guns, or another weapon that can guide missiles). Other scopes can't be attached to it.
We were thinking the same thing.

WARNING! POTENTIAL FEATURE BLOAT POST.

Hmm, to resolve the issue of having access to a guided GEP right off the bat perhaps it needs it's own specialized guidance system mod kit found a little later in the game. With the latter it wouldn't encourage abuse of the detach/attach system. And maybe we could add a few more specialiized mod kits that grant unique behavior to a weapon, because that'd be extra fun.

Just to tempt the idea I'm going to throw another lazily defined concept out there:

Universal Specialized Mod kits <- lol stupid oxymoron. Needs a better name.

when attached to a weapon:

GEP: guidance system scope
Pistol/Stealth Pistol: ricochet bullets.
Sniper Rifle: additional armor penetration (more effective vs bots).
Mini-crossbow: boosts clip size by an additional 50%
Plasma rifle: fires four plasma bolts per shot/increases bolt blast radius/increases bolt projectile speed.
Flamethrower: reduces ammo consumption by x% (would need to be reasonably balanced).
shotguns: incendiary buckshot (as in IW)?

And maybe it even results in a unique visual mod on the weapon.

You can only find up to two in a playthrough forcing specialization and tough choices as per standard DX design. None can be detached.
And again the player must accept the utterly illogical notion of all this stuff being made for weapons and shoved in one mod kit.
^^ I take it that this is a troll post?

I like the idea of finding the GEP guidance system later in the game though.
Last edited by Mortecha on Sun Jan 15, 2017 4:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mortecha
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Mortecha »

Cybernetic pig wrote:
Option 2 is not logically sound because at all because you are binding scopes to a weapon, and any subsequent scopes you attach to it moves the replaced scope in to an invisible and weightless scope bag containing all previous and undesired scopes that can then be retrieved and used on that weapon only.

Option 2 is not intuitive because the player would expect a detached scope to go back into their inventory, and will be confused when it is not there.
I never stated option 2 was logically sound or intuitive. I was agreeing with you that option 1 was.
Ahh sorry about that :)
Cybernetic pig
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Mortecha wrote: ^^ I take it that this is a troll post?
No, I'm not the one to go to any lengths to troll. That's the functioning of the depraved. I was being serious, but I can see how you may have seen it as a troll post because of the feature bloat warning and extreme nature of the concept. However, both IW and HR had unique mods so it should be sensible/DX-like enough.

What a lot of people don't understand despite it being written on the moddb page is GMDX strives to be faithful in design principles only. Mostly. Existing aspects of the design are otherwise modified to make a better DX. Exceptions apply e.g writing and soundtrack is barely touched, art style should ideally be very faithful (primarily for consistency). Levels should retain their identity because it's some of the finest 3D level design to exist, and everything you see in the game defines the experience the most (arguably), and things that simply don't need to be touched without good reason should not be touched. That aside it's a very progressive mod.
As long as the design principles are followed (which are fucking God-tier) without exception and much of the base design remains, all is well.
Last edited by Cybernetic pig on Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:25 am, edited 4 times in total.
Mortecha
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Mortecha »

Cybernetic pig wrote:
Mortecha wrote: ^^ I take it that this is a troll post?
No, I'm not the one to go to any lengths to troll. That's the functioning of the depraved. I was being serious, but I can see how you may have seen it as a troll post because of the feature bloat warning and extreme nature of the concept. However, both IW and HR had unique mods so it should be sensible/DX-like enough.
So unique weapon specific mods that are extremely rare. I think that that would be cool indeed, as long as there would be specific weapon mods and not one mod that offers all these effects out of one package(that would be weird). But the effects/benefits need to be more clearly thought out though.

Since we are on this topic already. I would also like to propose making the Grenade Launcher on the Assault Rifle be a unique attachment that can be attached to both the Assault Rifle and Assault Shotgun.
Cybernetic pig
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Regarding all special upgrades coming from one mod pack I made an edit you likely missed:
You can only find up to two in a playthrough forcing specialization and tough choices as per standard DX design. None can be detached.
And again the player must accept the utterly illogical notion of all this stuff being made for weapons and shoved in one mod kit. But it's this way as opposed to how Human Revolution handled it because it enforces tough choices and specialization rather than being linear upgrade that you always put on the same gun every playthrough, which is utterly boring by comparison.
It's one of those exceptions were logic/realism should perhaps be thrown out the window.

Yeah, maybe the grenade launcher should be a specialized mod. Maybe. You want to do that because it's logical and realistic, but I'm not so sure as things are already balanced around its current existence, and it does have a big impact on balance as it is access to 15-20 explosives that overcome most types of challenges.
Mortecha
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Mortecha »

Cybernetic pig wrote:Regarding all special upgrades coming from one mod pack I made an edit you likely missed:
You can only find up to two in a playthrough forcing specialization and tough choices as per standard DX design. None can be detached.
And again the player must accept the utterly illogical notion of all this stuff being made for weapons and shoved in one mod kit. But it's this way as opposed to how Human Revolution handled it because it enforces tough choices and specialization rather than being linear upgrade that you always put on the same gun every playthrough, which is utterly boring by comparison.
It's one of those exceptions were logic/realism should perhaps be thrown out the window.

Yeah, maybe the grenade launcher should be a specialized mod. Maybe. You want to do that because it's logical and realistic, but I'm not so sure as things are already balanced around its current existence, and it does have a big impact on balance as it is access to 15-20 explosives that overcome most challenges.
Can't you just randomly spawn one of them in a given location (or a random location in a given level specified by a small number of ideal locations) when the desired level loads? That way you still retain the HR-esque way of handle weapon mods (which I liked) but at the same time avoiding the unnecessary means of forcing players to accept that this one box affords the player so much functionality. The specified upgrades to a weapon from any given kit was logical, and am confused about why you would think that would be boring when the alternative is magic for the sake of mixing things up. Plus this is also an opportunity to create more interesting mod kit designs instead of just a tiny box (Like those mini cereal boxes), they of course would all have to fit in a 1x1 slot in the inventory.
Last edited by Mortecha on Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cybernetic pig
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Mortecha wrote: Can't you just randomly spawn one of them in a given location? That way you still retain the HR-esque way of handle weapon mods (which I liked) but at the same time avoiding the unnecessary means of forcing players to accept that this one box affords the player so much functionality.
No player choice, which is what would make the universal box so great.

Hey, we've already ditched generic scopes. Scope/sight Mod kits will result in entirely different scopes being applied to the weapon, as opposed to the more sensible generic HDTP approach. If the player has to accept that then this should not be much an issue. Only that it asks you accept more unrealistic elements, of which the modding system is already somewhat mixed in to provide better gameplay. Vanilla is more feasible/realistic than what we've got now though, but this mod plus GMDXv9.0 will result in so much modding depth.
Last edited by Cybernetic pig on Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
Mortecha
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Mortecha »

Cybernetic pig wrote:
Mortecha wrote: Can't you just randomly spawn one of them in a given location? That way you still retain the HR-esque way of handle weapon mods (which I liked) but at the same time avoiding the unnecessary means of forcing players to accept that this one box affords the player so much functionality.
No player choice, which is what would make the universal box so great.

Hey, we've already ditched generic scopes. Scope/sight Mod kits will result in entirely different scopes being applied to the weapon, as opposed to the more sensible generic HDTP approach. If the player has to accept that then this should not be much an issue.
Absolutely not. I literally can't see why this in the way you are proposing it would be beneficial at all. And I'm confused by how you can't see it too. Are you doing this because "we ditched generic scopes"? Which by the way is in a self contained part of the mod which is optional at the discretion of the player.

This suggestion contains more magic that that invisible weightless magic bag of scopes bound to only one weapon idea.:P

This mod thing that you are proposing is going against logic and what I am trying to achieve. Which is why I still think your having a go haha.
Last edited by Mortecha on Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cybernetic pig
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Hmm? Right, you're striving for increased overall realism. Like Salk said, I've always maintained gameplay should often take precedence if there ever is a conflict of interest. With some exceptions. And hardly ever crossing the line in either direction: rarely ridiculously gamey, rarely realistic to the point of boring. Context-specific.

No, I'm not having a go. Just standing by DX/LGS design principles as always as I'm entirely convinced there's rarely anything better.
Mortecha
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Mortecha »

Cybernetic pig wrote:Hmm? Right, you're striving for increased overall realism. Like Salk said, I've always maintained gameplay should often take precedence if there ever is a conflict of interest. With some exceptions. And hardly ever crossing the line in either direction: rarely ridiculously gamey, rarely realistic to the point of boring. Context-specific.
Not entirely. If I am chasing complete realism then the game would become boring fast. The key is to make sure that there is a balance, and in certain places where logically things would be done one way that are identical to reality then that shouldn't be avoided because it's realistic.

Deus Ex isn't ruined because having multiple versions of scopes, being able to attach and remove scopes, and being able to form subjective opinions about them or make strategic decisions in their use. In fact the above would improve it.

And this choice permanence thing you keep bringing up is just your perception on the design features of the game. It's not something holy. haha
Last edited by Mortecha on Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cybernetic pig
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Cybernetic pig »

But then wouldn't the entire concept of universal accuracy/scope/suppressor/clip etc mods never have made it into the vanilla game to begin with? A universal clip mod that upgrades a wide variety of weapon's clip size, always by 10% is not really following reality, but it provides more fruitful gameplay and is ever so slightly feasible because it's the future and we don't know what it holds.
in certain places where logically things would be done one way that are identical to reality then that shouldn't be avoided because it seems realistic
Yes, but this isn't one of those instances, because the gameplay route is far more fruitful.

I did complain about mods giving unique scopes in the past, but this is because there's little notable gameplay benefit to ditch that realism for. But I went with it anyway because the aesthetic benefit may override the value of realism, and your creative freedom is also important.
And this choice permanence thing you keep bringing up is just your perception on the design features of the game. It's not something holy. haha
I told you, it's something present in every Immersive Sim up to Arx Fatalis, with no exceptions. 1992-2002. Stat. Perk. Aug. Weapon mod. It's all permanent and for very good reasons. I follow it because those reasons are awesome, not just because it's a sacred rule.
Last edited by Cybernetic pig on Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mortecha
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Mortecha »

Actually, there's nothing stopping you from applying that to HDTP and vanilla weapons.

And if this is a serious suggestion I would like to have it done my way for my weapons OK?
Cybernetic pig
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Mortecha wrote:Actually, there's nothing stopping you from applying that to HDTP and vanilla weapons.
sort of, and I have thought of it before. If I recall, what put me off before was the limitation of no visual upgrade happening to the weapon when you apply the unique mod.

It was brought up here because it would resolve the GEP gun guidance issue while supporting the ability to detach scopes as defined in Scope Detachment Concept 1, and it's just cool and allows for deeper weapon modding.

Another alternative is to remove the GEP guidance system altogether.
Last edited by Cybernetic pig on Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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DevAnj
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Re: Mortecha's Weapon Mod Discussion

Post by DevAnj »


Another alternative is to remove the GEP guidance system altogether.
Wouldn't mind that; I never found it particularly useful and it always felt more like a novelty feature taken from Invisible War. The laser guiding on the other hand, I do like, and find more useful and practical for most situations.
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