DX3 will actually be a prequel!

Dedicated to the discussion of OTP and Deus Ex in general.

Moderators: Master_Kale, TNM Team

DDL
Traditional Evil Scientist
Traditional Evil Scientist
Posts: 3791
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2005 10:03 am

Post by DDL »

Which..incidentally, is why we're arguing and protesting NOW, rather than in three years time when it's entirely too late.

Assuming 'the devs know best' and then twiddling our thumbs and hoping...is entirely the wrong way to do this.

I have no problems with thinking the game may well be great in its own right, hell: I've played some truly shitty games in my time and still enjoyed them.
I still would much prefer something that actually can fit into the narrative path from 'now' to 'DX' (or even IW, which as a sequel fits in entirely happily with a narrative path). I'm happy for you to like the style, and I'm happy for a game with such a style to be made, but I don't think that style fits the DX chronology, which as a game set between two known periods (now and DX) it would have to do.

So there's that.

Also, for the record, arguing on the internet and then resorting to "LOL INTERNET ARGUMENTZ ARE RETARDED" is a terrible, terrible thing to do, especially in an argument with CtC: at least try and read what he writes (you might learn something).
User avatar
gamer0004
Illuminati
Posts: 1215
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 4:53 pm

Post by gamer0004 »

justanotherfan wrote:
gamer0004 wrote:Seriously, mechanical augs forming tentacles just to prevent you from dying when you jump off a tall building? Not even nano-augmentations were capable of that! And what was wrong with the DX speed aug?
Hitting someone through a wall? Impossible! Especially with mech augs.
I agree. Very much so. I see it another way though. Perhaps at the time, mech augs are an established technology undergoing a Renaissance. Maybe the story contradicts that (if mechs are new), but mechanical things are well known, and once the tech makes it possible to use those things as more effective body parts, I think we'd see all kinds of crazy modifications like that. Gunther wanted a gun in his head so, if unarmed, he could still kill people by looking at them. Retractable shock-absorbing arms are possible.

Nanotech, however, would have far more potential and ability. JC is an experiment. JC has technology that lets him be shot many many times and live; he can run faster than anyone, survive unaided in harsher environments, and he can hide in ways mechs can't. Mechanical augmentations should be like a crazy kitchen gadget store, while nanotech augs should be like instantly evolving to do something better. Early technologies can be like that, worse in general at first, but having fundamentally fewer limitations. Think of the early years of LCD versus CRT, and how only lately the LCD has been matching or surpassing CRTs in qualities that established technology was best at (high resolutions, colour fidelity, brightness) yet still has the original fundamental advantages (dimensions/weight, efficiency, clarity, more digital, more potential).

That's the way I'd write it anyhow. Mechs should have retractable chainsaws that shoot bees, but JC would just turn on themoptic-camo mod, and silent-walk mod around the mech. Or just shoot the mech while Active Defense zaps the bees. Jensen should be like James Bond after visiting Q, but I expect Jensen to die when shot in the head like Bond would.

They'll still probably screw that up by giving Jensen the same mods JC had, mechanically. Oh well.
The difference is that a skull gun is in fact very useful, while tentacles are not.

And no, they are quite impossible. They'd be very heavy, weak, and how do you think we can create tentacle-like robotic arms? Any idea how many very small (in fact, probably nano-sized) different joints and motors you'd need?
I mean, yes, I agree, when new technology arrives people want to do crazy things with it. But it's not like (according to DX and/or DX bible) "Joe the plumber" will be able to use it, because
A. You'll need a lot of training to be able to use it and it wouldn't be possible to get that training as average Joe and it will be way to expensive.
B. It's too expensive for Joe to actually buy augmentations, let alone let new ones to be developed.
C. The government won't let Joe the plumber have augmentations because it would be too dangerous.

So the only ones who'd have this kind of tech would be corporations and the government. Both want to develop utensils which are in fact useable and effiecient. And tentacles to jump from high buildings are neither.
And even if they were, then hitting someone through a wall still wasn't.

And yes, DX is only a story. But DX3 conflicts heavily with that, while it definately has much to do with it (takes place in the same world about 25 years before DX). And instead of creating something almost as deep as LotR, DX3 chops it down into several different conflicting stories.

I'm not impressed.
DDL
Traditional Evil Scientist
Traditional Evil Scientist
Posts: 3791
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2005 10:03 am

Post by DDL »

Still, if they don't now add a chainsaw that fires bees, I will be very very sad.
Mr_Cyberpunk
Illuminati
Posts: 3441
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 3:57 am
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Contact:

Post by Mr_Cyberpunk »

I sure hope the Skull Gun is the LAST weapon Jensen gets else the game is just going to be stupid. Skull Gun can kill people by just thinking so having it at the start of the game would just GIMP everything. I don't even know why they put it in since the Skull Gun was expensive late era mech technology in Deus Ex 1 so to have it nearly 30 years prior to Gunther's request makes me think why Gunther wasn't given one in the first place.

That's the first inconsistency I've noticed so far. So unless Jensen has to do something INCREDIBLY hard and evil to get it I'm worried they've fucked up the canon in place of fanboi brown noising. ("hey I know.. Lets put the magic Skull Gun in this game, you know the one Gunther asked for in the first game" "yeah but dude they were apparently "too Good" for Gunther to have" "so doesn't mean Jensen can't have them" "but he's 30 years before Gunther?! that'd mean the technology is Old and makes no sense why Gunther didn't have one to begin with" "so.. it'd still be cool" - EM Employees)

btw Gamer 0004 its good to see your opinions have changed as I recall you were very enthusiastic about the game initially, I did warn everyone on the Deus Ex 3 forums to be EXTREMELY skeptic.
User avatar
fox
X-51
Posts: 928
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:57 am

Post by fox »

@gamer0004:
Who said what the story will be? Apart from the the protagonist's name and his starting point in the game.

@Mr_Cyberpunk:
Who said that there will be a skullgun?

As far as I know there is no information about any of this. Presenting things that only exist in your fantasy as facts and complaining about it is just plain idiotic. :evil:
Last edited by fox on Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mr_Cyberpunk
Illuminati
Posts: 3441
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 3:57 am
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Contact:

Post by Mr_Cyberpunk »

well what's that huge bump on his head then? a weak spot for low velocity projectiles?! some stupid early Infolink receiver? the only other thing I can think of is a telepathy aug that allows hacking into computers mentally (JC had this).

But I pissed off a fanboy.. so I feel better already :D
EER
Illuminati
Posts: 2486
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 7:52 pm
Location: NL

Post by EER »

There was an 'exclusive' preview in a Dutch magazine as well, I'll post some of the interesting stuff (they mentioned about 6 augmentations) somewhere tonight :)
Another Visitor ... Stay a while ... Stay forever!
User avatar
fox
X-51
Posts: 928
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:57 am

Post by fox »

Mr_Cyberpunk wrote:But I pissed off a fanboy.. so I feel better already :D
Well, I am not a fanboy and if you'd read my posts about DX3 here and especially at the Edios-forums you'd know that. Disrespecting comments like yours are the main reason for my growing discomfort with this community.
User avatar
gamer0004
Illuminati
Posts: 1215
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 4:53 pm

Post by gamer0004 »

fox wrote:@gamer0004:
Who said what the story will be? Apart from the the protagonist's name and his starting point in the game.

@Mr_Cyberpunk:
Who said that there will be a skullgun?

As far as I know there is no information about any of this. Presenting things that only exist in your fantasy as facts and complaining about it is just plain idiotic. :evil:
I'm not saying I know that the story will be, but so far most of what we've seen in itself conflicts with at least DX ideas and most of them conflict with the DX story/heritage (like, it's impossible that if there was such a radical fashion and style change, then surely it would've left its traces or at least it would've been mentioned).

@EER: which magazine? I've checked but none of the Dutch mags I saw contained so much as a hint at "DX"3...
User avatar
Placebo
MJ12
Posts: 334
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 1:25 pm
Location: Croatia

Post by Placebo »

You talk about DX3 like it should have been already forseen in DX, that DX imposes story/design limitations DX3 is forbidden to cross. It's not like they were making a Baldurs Gate or Planescape Torment. There they had to invest more effort in creating a believeing world through text, while that text in DX (a FPS 3D game) transcends into textures/maps/mechanic/design what else there is to for a FPS-RPG caliber game that DX is.
We're entering a time paradox here and bunch of facts are not taken into consideration. A game was made in 2000, it's sequel was right on on the time line. Now in 2009/2010 were getting a new entry, but it's place on the memory lane is before the events of the original DX. The DX was not planed as triology. For that you have Too Human where the developers dedicated to create a believable world with it's mythology and history, and if they decided to make a prequel they would't needed to change a lot, just a bit or more just to differentiate the prequel.
DX is has no roots. It has some clips from the newspapers, paragraphs from books and dozen of facts from characters and it creates enough mass the have sustained develpment till the end of DX game. But that's just it. It didn't create 10 Commandments of how a design and style and history were or how DX3 should or could have been like if it was made....and a prequel :roll: ..... DX was created for the purposes of DX and DX3 that is placed in it's history is free to grow into whatever child it wants, whatevet the Eidos Montreal is heading for, gudied by us fans.
it confilcts with the ideas od DX. DX3 will become something unique because it growing up outside the ideas of DX and is becoming a independent entity, not shackled by DX-es retardness, (excuse me =)), cause then it be living in history. But the EM is looking at, from this present point, into the DX history for inspiration to light up it path to the future of DX.
Image
ImageEvery morning, I meditate about love and peace... I stop after three seconds.
Image
User avatar
Jonas
Off Topic Productions
Off Topic Productions
Posts: 14224
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 9:21 pm
Location: Hafnia

Post by Jonas »

Uh Spot. They chose to make a prequel, nobody forced them to make that choice. They could've done a sequel, they could've done an alternate universe storyline, they could've written a completely different story set in the same period as DX, or they could've chosen to work with a completely new IP. But they didn't - they chose to make a prequel, and that means they're committing to, indeed, live up to both the story and design limitations that the first two games (but chiefly the first) places on them, and not cross any of those lines. That, see, is the point of a prequel, and it's what makes a good prequel a pure joy to experience because somehow it all just fits together in spite of not being planned from the beginning.

If you make a prequel that doesn't fit into the continuity or doesn't seem to actually lead logically into the next game in the continuity, then why make a prequel at all? That's in complete defiance of the point.
Jonas Wæver
Chief Poking Manager of TNM

I've made some videogames:
Expeditions: Rome
Expeditions: Viking
Expeditions: Conquistador
Clandestine
chris the cynic
Human Encyclopaedia
Posts: 2207
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2006 9:50 pm

Post by chris the cynic »

So what I'm learning in this thread is that some people think the best way to make a prequel is to contradict the thing to which it is a prequel.

Why on earth would you make a prequel in that case? There is no story that can't be told outside of a given continuity so if you're going to be outside of it anyway why choose to lie to everyone and say your thing is inside of the continuity? Why not just make an original work?

The only reason I can see it to be a parasite, to feed off the success of the original work.

I am not saying that this is what Deus Ex 3 is, I am saying that that is exactly what at least one person seems to be advocating.
User avatar
fox
X-51
Posts: 928
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:57 am

Post by fox »

And I'm learning that some people are very black and white thinking. People this dogmatic are indeed doing well to prepare for a big disappointment. Posting concerns, hoping that some devs will read it, is one thing but dooming a game on such a thin basis of information is ridiculous. Everybody with his own concept for DX3 in mind can be sure to not get what he wants - because you don't make the damned game! EM does. Accept it. You are not the saviour of the DX-universe.

Oh and yes, a prequel has to follow some rules but at this point there is nothing definitively wrong with DX3. Just because you can't imagine that there will be a period in which some upperclass people develop a shortlived affinity for the Renaissance, doesn't mean it is impossible. I for one see a good chance for something like that. I also think that a prequel that comes so much later has to break some boundaries of its predecessor.
User avatar
gamer0004
Illuminati
Posts: 1215
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 4:53 pm

Post by gamer0004 »

Love this forum... At least here is some proper discussion (not being sacrastic).

"A thin basis of information" you say. I really can't imagine how they can, at this point, return to a style and world that actually fits in DX. It's not just one weapon model, one piece of artwork. No, practically everything conflicts with DX. In DX, for instance, mech augs were, well, mechanical augs. They were limited in their functioning by the limits of science.
In DX3 they clearly aren't.
In DX, weapons were (mostly) based on function, just like in the real world. In DX3 they clearly aren't; there they are based on what looks 'cool'. And yes, they do.
In DX, there were no hints at any renaissance fasion, while the renaissance itself was mentioned many times. I would at the very very least in that case have expected Tong to have made a remark on that. But he didn't. But in DX3 there is a renaissance style.
In DX the mech augs shown in the game were very likely to be the most advanced at that time. However, in DX3 (which is about 25 years earlier) they apparently had augs that were far more advanced (in fact, far more advanced then nano-augmentations, or even bio-augs of almost 50 years later). And yet we have never heard of any kind of pre DX Collapse. Surely, since there was one between roughly 2052 and 2065 or 2070, if there had been another collapse before DX, then there would've been mentions of it, both in DX and IW.

And you say that "Everybody with his own concept for DX3 in mind can be sure to not get what he wants". Of course I realise that. When I saw the first concept art for DX3 it was very unlike what I had imagined. However, it was good; it didn't conflict with DX, it had the same style...
Since then it went downhill :P
User avatar
Jonas
Off Topic Productions
Off Topic Productions
Posts: 14224
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 9:21 pm
Location: Hafnia

Post by Jonas »

fox wrote:And I'm learning that some people are very black and white thinking. People this dogmatic are indeed doing well to prepare for a big disappointment.
This quote right here? That's you making it personal. Try not to, please.
Everybody with his own concept for DX3 in mind can be sure to not get what he wants - because you don't make the damned game! EM does. Accept it. You are not the saviour of the DX-universe.
So... because we're not the ones making DX3, we are not entitled to have an opinion about the quality of the information they're releasing? Or perhaps what you mean is that because Eidos owns the IP (that they had little to no creative hand in developing in the first place), they must automatically know the universe and the setting better than we do?
Just because you can't imagine that there will be a period in which some upperclass people develop a shortlived affinity for the Renaissance, doesn't mean it is impossible.
Now see, that's a valid point - if only you hadn't preceded it with polemical bullshit.
I for one see a good chance for something like that.
We don't. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
I also think that a prequel that comes so much later has to break some boundaries of its predecessor.
Yes I think so as well. Only I think the "boundaries" they're breaking are the wrong ones. Can you change the gameplay mechanics? Sure, as long as you don't alienate the entire fanbase. Can you update the technology? Sure can, very few people will be mad. Can you frontload it with a ton of DRM? Well you can, but you'll be shooting yourself in the foot. But can you mess with continuity? No. That's just deliberately pissing people off. There is nothing outdated about Deus Ex's setting, characters, or storyline - nothing that justifies fucking with the continuity.
Jonas Wæver
Chief Poking Manager of TNM

I've made some videogames:
Expeditions: Rome
Expeditions: Viking
Expeditions: Conquistador
Clandestine
Post Reply