DX3 will actually be a prequel!

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Post by fox »

gamer0004 wrote:It's not just one weapon model, one piece of artwork. No, practically everything conflicts with DX.
I totally not agree. One of us must have a very distorted view on Deus Ex.

In DX, for instance, mech augs were, well, mechanical augs. They were limited in their functioning by the limits of science.
In DX3 they clearly aren't.

Now would be a good time for examples... I can see some issues people have with the ones already presented but I have yet to see them in action and this is actually one part of the game that I would prefer to be handled not too dogmatic. Fun is more important than staying 100% true to timeline. (Yes, that's a touchy issue and it has to be handled very carefully)
In DX, weapons were (mostly) based on function, just like in the real world. In DX3 they clearly aren't; there they are based on what looks 'cool'. And yes, they do.
How many have you seen? Four? A very present day looking rifle, a very normal looking grenade, a minigun that this dude called "Barret" calls his left arm and a tripple-barreled gun (which indeed looks a bit too much like a action movie cliche). Now, tell me, what exactly is so Anti-DX about them?
In DX, there were no hints at any renaissance fasion, while the renaissance itself was mentioned many times. I would at the very very least in that case have expected Tong to have made a remark on that. But he didn't. But in DX3 there is a renaissance style.
In DX1 nobody talked about Shanghai's upperclass at all. Why should anybody have mentioned their fashion? Has anybody mentioned anything about fashion in DX1? At least I am not aware of anything like that. (I realize that it's just one of many possibilities that this is Shanghai-specific).
In DX the mech augs shown in the game were very likely to be the most advanced at that time. However, in DX3 (which is about 25 years earlier)

There seems to more money available for stuff like that during the time of DX3 than during the 2050ties, when everything already went downhill for a long time.
When I saw the first concept art for DX3 it was very unlike what I had imagined. However, it was good; it didn't conflict with DX, it had the same style...
Since then it went downhill :P
Opposite experience here...
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Post by fox »

Jonas wrote:
fox wrote:And I'm learning that some people are very black and white thinking. People this dogmatic are indeed doing well to prepare for a big disappointment.
This quote right here? That's you making it personal. Try not to, please.
This quote right here? That's you making it personal. Try not to, please... Mine was a reaction to something chris wrote, btw.
So... because we're not the ones making DX3, we are not entitled to have an opinion about the quality of the information they're releasing?

Are you trying to get me deliberately wrong? Looks like it when you write:
Or perhaps what you mean is that because Eidos owns the IP (that they had little to no creative hand in developing in the first place), they must automatically know the universe and the setting better than we do?

Now see, that's a valid point - if only you hadn't preceded it with polemical bullshit.
Yeah, too bad...
I for one see a good chance for something like that.
We don't. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
So... are you talking in the name of the entire DX-fanbase or have you just switched to the third person when you talk about your own thoughts?
Can you change the gameplay mechanics? Sure, as long as you don't alienate the entire fanbase.
Well, they didn't. I am part of the fanbase and as you can see I am not alienated by DX3 and as far as I can tell many others aren't as well. Some are - that is what always happens in cases like that. I think the number of those who are really alienated is fairly small.
Can you update the technology? Sure can, very few people will be mad. Can you frontload it with a ton of DRM? Well you can, but you'll be shooting yourself in the foot. But can you mess with continuity? No. That's just deliberately pissing people off. There is nothing outdated about Deus Ex's setting, characters, or storyline - nothing that justifies fucking with the continuity.

What's the matter with that DRM-talk now? Nobody of us can tell if they have messed up with the continuity. That's my point, you know...
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Post by DDL »

I'm pretty sure Jonas speaks for me and Chris at the very least, so he's entirely justified in using 'we'.

I do like the fact you criticise him for using sweeping generalisations and then later criticise him BY using sweeping generalisations.


To be honest, the impression I get is that you're treating it as a new game, which is fine: as a new game it looks pretty, and has potential to be a lot of fun.

Many of the rest of us are treating as a new Deus Ex game, and a new PREQUEL-based Deus Ex game, and that's where the problems come into play.

Arguments like "they don't have enough money for decent mechs in 2052" flies in the face of the fact they have more than enough money to fund an entire anti-terrorist coalition, a secret 'evil' organisation, and still have spare to throw at ZOMG NEW NANOAUGS. Nanoaugs who appear to be both far more versatile than the mechs at the time, and yet also less versatile than the putative mechs in DX3, 25 years earlier. Either way you cut it, it makes no sense.
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Post by Jonas »

fox wrote:This quote right here? That's you making it personal. Try not to, please... Mine was a reaction to something chris wrote, btw.
No, that right there was a warning that you're coming dangerously close to flamebaiting. Fortunately for all of us, to the best of my knowledge it is impossible to bait Chris into a flame war, but that doesn't mean I'm going to just sit here as you go straight for the throat for no apparent reason. What you were doing was not just "a reaction to something Chris wrote", it was you sidestepping the actual arguments and instead insulting Chris. Which makes me moderately angry because Chris is amongst the most sensible people I know, so calling him dogmatic and saying he thinks very black and white flies in the face of everything he stands for. In other words you're being a dick, and please stop it.

For the rest of your post: Could you please try not to insult me? Or at least, if you must insult me, try to be a little subtle about it :?
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Post by fox »

DDL wrote:I do like the fact you criticise him for using sweeping generalisations and then later criticise him BY using sweeping generalisations.
Point taken.
To be honest, the impression I get is that you're treating it as a new game, which is fine: as a new game it looks pretty, and has potential to be a lot of fun.
No, no... I take it as what it is: a handfull of pictures and very little actual information about how EM plans a prequel to Deus Ex to be. I am expecting the finished game to look a bit different because it is set in another time and will use modern graphics, I am expecting it to play different because there are no nano-augs and other things like destroyable environments or more realistic physics come into play and also I expect the AI to behave different. And there will be another story as well. It will be a new game.
Arguments like "they don't have enough money for decent mechs in 2052" flies in the face of the fact they have more than enough money to fund an entire anti-terrorist coalition, a secret 'evil' organisation, and still have spare to throw at ZOMG NEW NANOAUGS. Nanoaugs who appear to be both far more versatile than the mechs at the time, and yet also less versatile than the putative mechs in DX3, 25 years earlier. Either way you cut it, it makes no sense.
Well, I wrote my two cents about this two posts earlier but yes, this is an issue. But in my opinion that doesn't justify dooming the enitre game (that nobody knows much about).
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Post by fox »

Jonas wrote:For the rest of your post: Could you please try not to insult me? Or at least, if you must insult me, try to be a little subtle about it :?
Playnig the wise admin is such a cheap way to treat people, Jonas. You jumped at my throat out of the blue. But I don't feel like we have much more to talk about anyways.
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Post by Jonas »

We're not dooming the entire game though, no matter how you choose to interpret it. We're expression our concerns about the information that has been released. Nobody is saying that Deus Ex 3 will doubtlessly suck, we're currently discussing what has been made public, and some of us aren't entirely happy with what we've been told.

Sure it may all turn out completely different in the end - that'll only be good though. Perhaps it'll be because they're secretly lurking on this forum and something we say makes them go "ooh good point". It's highly unlikely, but in any event we are Deus Ex fans and we are compelled to talk about Deus Ex 3. We can't really discuss more than we know, so we discuss what we know, subject to change though it may be. I don't personally see anything wrong with that.
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Post by Jonas »

fox wrote:Playnig the wise admin is such a cheap way to treat people, Jonas. You jumped at my throat out of the blue. But I don't feel like we have much more to talk about anyways.
Would you rather I play the psychotic power-hungry admin and ban you right now for criticising me? Because I'd rather not. I'd rather just let you know that I think you're out of line, and I think that irrespective of my permissions on this board. I did not in fact jump at your throat, I told you that I perceived your comment as an attempt to change the nature of the debate in a direction I don't particularly like (namely passing judgment on the person you're debating with rather than addressing his actual arguments). And I asked you not to take it any further in that direction because I'd like these boards to be kept moderately free of insults and personal attacks.
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Post by justanotherfan »

chris the cynic wrote:Why not just make an original work?
Easier, since you don't need to create a new story world and there's a preexisting framework with goals to work toward. More profitable, since you get fans of the original buying it and can trade off its name. That third DX game that didn't take the Deus Ex name, it would have done better sales as a DX title. Capitalism sucks sometimes, especially concerning art.

I just hope to enjoy a new game. If it conflicts with DX, well, fine, as long as each specific conflict makes DX3 distinctly better. If it's worse, then I'll be angry they wrecked it for nothing, so they'll have a lot to prove. People who worry about DX3 staying exactly like the original already hate DX2, so the DX franchise is already ruined in that sense. I don't think the developers are listening to us, so there's no reason to fight.
Last edited by justanotherfan on Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by chris the cynic »

For the record, I see in color. I see the blacks and whites, yes, but also if you paint your pallet blue and gray I'll won't miss those either. I see also see the nice bright colors, I see the greens of summer. I see the brilliant oranges, yellows and reds of the fall (in fact I've been taking pictures.) I see the colors whether I'm looking at something photorealistic or the hight of impressionism.

I like seeing in color, I even prefer my angels to have colored wings, but if you tell me that this is a part of the water lilies series we're going to have a problem.

That problem has nothing to do with the quality of the painting, it has to do with how it fits into the series.

You can claim that the problem is because I see in black and white, but the reality is that being able to see shades of gray and color enhances the problem. If I saw in black and white there would be no degree so anything that didn't fit would be judged equally. Shades of gray allow me to see that some things come closer to fitting than others, and that allows me to see how much it doesn't fit. Hue enhances that in ways I could never describe to someone who didn't see it.

-

For anyone who couldn't follow that bizarre extended metaphor, I have included lyrics from at least two songs so you can have the satisfaction of knowing where part of it came from. Also, there's a link to a pretty picture from the Uffizi gallery. If you're ever in Florence you should go there.
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Post by justanotherfan »

Sorta quoted Kodachrome...caught that one.
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Post by chris the cynic »

justanotherfan wrote: I just hope to enjoy a new game. If it conflicts with DX, well, fine, as long as each specific conflict makes DX3 distinctly better. If it's worse, then I'll be angry they wrecked it for nothing. People who worry about DX3 staying exactly like the original already hate DX2, so the DX franchise is already ruined. I don't think the developers are listening to us, so there's no reason to fight.
I feel like there is an unnecessary bipolar setup here. A bit of a false dichotomy. More than one actually.

What if blatantly contradicting the original doesn't make it better or worse? You said it is fine as long as it makes it better, you'll be angry if it is made worse. What if neither happens? What if they screw up continuity just for the hell of it? It doesn't make Deus Ex 3 better, it doesn't make Deus Ex 3 worse, it just makes it clear that Deus Ex couldn't follow Deus Ex 3. Is that good or bad in your eyes?

More importantly, no one here has advocated Deus Ex 3 staying exactly like the original. It shouldn't be. Nano augs don't exist yet. As far as we know neither do greasels or karkians. Grays as we knew them don't either. MJ12 is still a part of the Illuminati. The gray death isn't there but it seems (although a lack of dates makes it difficult to be sure) at least three other plagues are. The Illuminati have not yet given up on the United States and terrorism isn't nearly as much of a problem. (15 years till the NSF is founded.) These are all things that should make a prequel quite different.

The fact is that it could be as different as you like without failing breaking continuity. Deus Ex 3 could be a real time strategy game without breaking continuity. Deus Ex 3 could be entirely about a 12 year old trying to get a pet dog and not break continuity. Hopefully these examples are different enough from Deus Ex that you can all see that a game does not need to stay exactly the same to avoid breaking continuity.

No one here is complaining that it isn't the same (unless I missed something) but a few of us don't like the fact that it appears for all the world to break continuity.

I'm pretty sure that at least three people have implied our options are to either want it to be exactly the same or accept any changes. This is a false dichotomy.

I want a game that is different. If I want to play Deus Ex again I will and I don't need anyone to remake it for me. That simple fact does not mean that I have to give up on continuity. I'm all for a very different game, I'd just rather they didn't break continuity.
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Post by fox »

@Jonas:
Go ahead, doesn't really matter. :roll:

@chris:
I don't think being called a dogmatic black and white-thinker by me was a staggering blow, was it? It wasn't even meant very personal because it is directed at all those who already prepare to hate on DX3 even though there's almost nothing to hate about yet. That's madness. Then there are people who tell you things for facts that they made up out of thin air (skullgun, story) and sentences like "a parasite, to feed off the success of the original work" and "So what I'm learning in this thread is that some people think the best way to make a prequel is to contradict the thing to which it is a prequel." fly around. That was directed at Placebo who just said that you all have to be more open minded. My point exactly. That was unfair and that was why I replied to it.
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Post by Mr_Cyberpunk »

woah didn't expect that to burst out into flames. Well Jonas is actually right about what he's saying and the discussion about "why Deus Ex?" is spot on. Basically the same augments that No Mutants Allowed used for Fallout 3 can be applied to Deus Ex 3. They've changed the gameplay to MGS4 style and that just doesn't sit right with me AT ALL!

Basically the same thing has happened and we deserve EVERY right to be skeptic about this game, going in and thinking "ooh it looks pretty" isn't staying true to the franchise, I mean FUCK Deus Ex 1 was based on UT1. (of course even Half Life 1 was ugly)

Now fox you've got to understand that the community already went through this crap with Invisible War, we're not going to let them mislead us again cause that's bullshit. IWar looks nothing like Deus Ex 1, and we're comparing Deus Ex 3 to the same thing here just like we did last time. This is why the community is thinking this way because we've been here before. I don't trust EM at all, I don't care if its their game, its still apart of a franchise. Thank god Snowblind wasn't Deus Ex 3.. that game sucked!
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Post by chris the cynic »

First off, if you see flames grab marshmallows. There's no reason not to enjoy life as much as you can.

Second, there are degrees of open minded. I'm prepared to love Deus Ex 3, I'm prepared to hate it, I'm prepared to do anything in between. If that isn't open minded enough then I guess I'm a closed mined asshole. I can live with that. If being open minded means I have to be so open minded that you can convince me a dog is a railroad track then I guess I fail.

The only requirement that a prequel need fulfill is that it fit before the thing to which it is a prequel. If it fails at that I see a problem. Even if it turns out that Deus Ex 3 becomes my favorite game of all time, I will still see a problem with that. I'm not going to be open minded enough to say, "Causality is just an illusion and the past has no influence on the future." It will not happen (unless causality is just an illusion ...)

-

If you do a prequel it needs to fit before the thing to which it is a prequel, if you do a sequel it needs to fit after the thing it to which it is a sequel. If you do a concurrent work it need to fit beside the thing to which it is concurrent. If you can do none of these things then you should do an original work (or a reimagining if you want to take that road.) This isn't a problem, as there really isn't anything that needs to be in a given continuity.
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