Any gaming character pics like this?

[Jetsetlemming]

Have you seen the size of his books?
Between 800 and 200 pages each!
Nobody could read that.

I have no problem with long books. A couple months ago, I read "Insomnia", by Stephen king. 800 pages detailing the lives of two elderly people, and I couldn't put it down. Most of king's books are extremely long and good. The unabridged edition of "The Stand" was particularly good and long.

Finally somebody got my point / did not deliberately misinterpret me. Thank you.

I was just making a joke.
For the record, the only Clancy book I've read was Rainbow Six, which was more about the west in general being good guys, rather than just america. It's set in europe, and most of good guys are european.

[DDL]

Insomnia is surprisingly good, actually.

Even when the creepy greek-mythos elf people turn up.

Now if we're talking about BIG books, try pretty much anything by david eddings. That man can make the smallest things take YEARS.

An example book could be effectively summarised as "Some old friends meet up, and decide to go somewhere."

But he makes that take 1200 pages. Yes.

He's also good at completely random deus ex machina endings, too.

Book two: "some old friends actually go to the place they decided to go to"

(another 1200 pages)

Book three "some old friends arrive in the plance they decided to go to, and talk to some people"

(another 1192 pages)

Last eight pages of book three: "they kill a god. The end"

O_o

[Mr_Cyberpunk]

Probably adds a who new meaning to Side Quest for video games MAJOR procastination - can there be a such thing as written procastination? Looks like that would be a good example right there.

The other end of the scale is like with a lot of Video games where its just "GET TO THE BLOODY POINT" all the way through.. Deus Ex is probably in the middle, It gets to the point but gives u the option of taking it further. And thats a good example of good interactive writing. The only bad thing about Deus Ex would be the lack of Pathos and that only logos and ethos are featured in the story which I just wish had been added to the game to make it a little more human. I would've liked to have felt more from the voice acting, this really has been criticised a lot in reviews of Deus Ex claiming that the characters are too robotic, and I agree. What i thought was even funnier is that they never even tried to fix it in Invisible War. God damn Alex D was such a robot Boring zzzZZZzzzZzzz. I got sick of IWar because the scenes weren't really action packed, they were quite boring. Deus Ex had a lot of action.. It just left me wanting more though, and the result was a lackluster IWar

I'd like to know what Jonas thinks cause I mean we've got very different tastes towards Deus Ex's Story. I think i've mostly been critising the cinematics here. The locations are perfect, the game could be a little more non-linear but its still good none the less. (half way through the game things start getting really tight, unlike at the start)

[Jonas]

I think the "tightening" of DX's story towards the middle and up to the end serves well to increase the pace of the game and put you on the track to ending Bob's scheming. They give you a lot of room to monkey around in the beginning, and that's really great and very entertaining, but if you'd have to go back to Renton's family conflict after nuking A51, you might've found it hard to stay focussed on helping the guy with his daughter

As for the voice acting... the intent of ION Storm was to tone down the emotions of the main character to make room for the emotions of the player. They didn't want JC to react too strongly to anything because they were afraid that the emotions they'd given him would override those of the player. The player might've been annoyed if he felt disgust at Renton's behaviour and JC expressed sympathy and consolation, and reasonably so. JC's lack of emotion is a decent solution to a problem ION brought on themselves when they decided only to give the player dialogue choices when important decisions were to be made. In hard-core RPG's like Fallout or Neverwinter Nights, the player very rarely has less than 3 different dialogue choices, but in those games you don't have a voiced protagonist either, so all those lines of dialogue are pretty easy to implement.

Then there are the "Chinese" and "French" accents, but those are just bad, no use discussing that.

And Invisible War...
http://snoebelbloep.livejournal.com/18999.html

[Jetsetlemming]

Deus Ex's story has the same feel to me as the typical story arc of a japanese RPG. Young, inexperienced main character discovers special powers and uncovers a great evil, gathers unlikely friends, and saves the world. ;P DX is more interesting because of the unique aspects of the story (the sci fi and cyber punk elements) and the gameplay and level design (I DX's level design ).

[Mr_Cyberpunk]

(Im getting sick of you linking that blog whenever someone meantions IWar... yes i read it, and you make good points. @Jonas)

If the player wanted to express their emotions, then this should have been an option in the game. in some cases u are allowed to express it. (at the start of the game particularly, its based on how many people you kill) I would've prefered to have the option of yelling abuse at people

Late in the game, you can't really react, the game just DRAGS you along. By the end of the game (after replaying it) I find myself starting to just click through convosations, because at the end of the game I can't express my concern. I would've like to have had the option of Asking characters what they thought of a particular person or faction. That would've been funny, as well as allowed us as players to be persuaded to a particular side, which i think Deus Ex sorta fails at. You get to the end of the game and think.. Okay so now what.. I ended up choosing Helios the first time because Tong and Evertte provided unconvincing statements. Tong especially seemed a bit too extreme, and Evertte wasn't really going to change anything.

On the other hand, what the hell was the point of Merging with Helios? I figure it would've been better if he had set it free over the internet. ?! I also doubt that Destroying Area51 would accomplish anything... Though like with Iwar the endings weren't very well thought out.. (I HATED the denton ending in IWar, I liked in Deus Ex "Silouett thought it was wrong to give the Statue to the US" and thats how it should've stayed ) The only ending i liked in Iwar was actually the Illuminati ending because it essentially reverted everything back to Deus Ex1.

[Jonas]

(Im getting sick of you linking that blog whenever someone meantions IWar... yes i read it, and you make good points. @Jonas)

lol sorry. Reading it again, it doesn't really deal a lot with the branching storyline in IW, which I think is actually the best thing that game achieved.

If the player wanted to express their emotions, then this should have been an option in the game.

Well, that's personal preference, but I think the only reasonable reply I can give you is: If you want that kind of game, play something by Black Isle, Bioware, or Obsidian. Deus Ex is just not that kind of game. Deus Ex is a game where you express yourself through your actions rather than your words. I kinda wish I'd defended those basic principles in TNM, but I guess I'm too much of an RPG fan for that.

On the other hand, what the hell was the point of Merging with Helios? I figure it would've been better if he had set it free over the internet. ?!

Well, fucked if I know, you'll need somebody like walton simons or Chris the Cynic to tell you that, but I gather it was something about Helios needing a physical body to interact with the physical world. I guess a robot wouldn't flexible enough.

I also doubt that Destroying Area51 would accomplish anything...

Sure it would, all data transportation in the whole world was patched through Area51, destroying it would accomplish a hell of a lot. It probably just wouldn't be a very rational thing to do, "resetting" civilization like that. Back to complete anarchy and Survival of the Most Ruthless Scumbag. But that was Tong's idea.

Though like with Iwar the endings weren't very well thought out.. (I HATED the denton ending in IWar, I liked in Deus Ex "Silouett thought it was wrong to give the Statue to the US" and thats how it should've stayed ) The only ending i liked in Iwar was actually the Illuminati ending because it essentially reverted everything back to Deus Ex1.

The whole point of the IW endings was that none of them were "good". They all had their merits and especially their problems, the idea was to show that you're fucked if you do and fucked if you don't - just like real life, you might argue. If you really liked the Illuminati ending, ION Storm Austin failed in that regard. Personally, I thought the Illuminati ending sucked, I sure wouldn't like to be filmed without my knowing 24/7. The only issue was that your other options were equally or even more problematic. So there you go: There are no happy endings in IW, much like in DX.

A lot of people couldn't handle that.

[Mr_Cyberpunk]

A lot of people couldn't handle that.

or the entire game for that matter

Sure it would, all data transportation in the whole world was patched through Area51, destroying it would accomplish a hell of a lot. It probably just wouldn't be a very rational thing to do, "resetting" civilization like that. Back to complete anarchy and Survival of the Most Ruthless Scumbag. But that was Tong's idea.

Well, fucked if I know, you'll need somebody like walton simons or Chris the Cynic to tell you that, but I gather it was something about Helios needing a physical body to interact with the physical world. I guess a robot wouldn't flexible enough.

I don't recall the Internet ever having a begining.. I thought it was like a LAN, where all the servers connect to one another. There doesn't need to be a host for the internet, Just ISPs transmitting data across cable. If you ask me it would be IMPOSSIBLE to bring it down by blowing a server up.. All you could do really is destroy Helios.

http://computer.howstuffworks.com/inter ... ucture.htm
the diagram pretty much says it all. Look mah.. no hub! just a whole lotta routs

Helios was kinda like Skynet, it has a presence inside every computer. Also i would think that transfering to JC would be to Escape Area51. It had no other choice and we can assume that JC has a big HDD in his skull to store all that information. - There Helios would only lay Dormant and wouldn't control JC. It just seemed a little odd, you could bring down the internet, but u cant destroy technology unless u had a BIG EMP generator. (and that would pretty much kill everyone!)

unfortunately Deus Ex's story is too much of a ripoff of Escape from LA.. and thats particularly why I think they could have done SOOO much more. Kurt Russel sucks btw! Escape from LA is not Cyberpunk... They could've done better.

The style of the game however is brilliant, apart from JCs jacket and glasses and armor which were added last min to rip off the film BLADE. (its that OBVIOUS!) JC seems too much like Blade bad bad bad - Ive seen pictures of him from 2000 that don't look anything like the final.

I know im being really harsh. I still love the game, but at the same time there is stuff that i see and think WTF?! Cause im a nerd and we all nitpick from time to time.. Now! to more important things Picard or Kirk?

sorry for going a little off topic, im sticking to the whole Character discussion though. so at least im not all the way off.



- The ending from escape from LA- taken from the script.

He holds the real prototype, calmly pushes the button.

EXT. SPACE - DAWN

The ring of space satellites hover silently above the Earth. See
the United States, North America below, as a beautiful sunrise is
beginning.

Suddenly the satellites explode into white...

EXT. FIREBASE SEVEN - DAWN

As the sky is lit white. Malloy, Brazen, and the cops look up. All
vehicles stop. Lights out. Sounds of motors running down.

INT. STEEL-WALLED HALLWAY - DEPORTATION CENTER - DAWN

Darkness. No power. Everyone looks around. Utopia smiles.

There is a line "We'll send the world back to the fucking dark ages MAN!"

---
on an unrelated topic I just found these heaps cool pictures of Mulder from the X files who looks like JC with those glasses on WGibson wrote the epsiode. Obviously its cyberpunk





just figured it looked funny seeing as the Xfiles was a big influence on Deus Ex and ideally i would've love to have seen JC more like him.
---

And also i found this its a cover from Neuromancer



Can anyone say Augmented Bob Page? I can

I should also add that Deadlus and Icky are Neuromancer and Wintermute, who merge and take over the internet/Matrix.

---

[Jonas]

I don't recall the Internet ever having a begining.. I thought it was like a LAN, where all the servers connect to one another. There doesn't need to be a host for the internet, Just ISPs transmitting data across cable. If you ask me it would be IMPOSSIBLE to bring it down by blowing a server up.. All you could do really is destroy Helios.

http://computer.howstuffworks.com/inter ... ucture.htm
the diagram pretty much says it all. Look mah.. no hub! just a whole lotta routs

That is the most astoundingly irrelevant thing I have ever seen. Deus Ex is science fiction. Deus Ex says the whole information system (not just the Internet; phones, radio, television, every sattelite around the planet, etc.) has been rerouted through the Aquinas Hub in Area51. Thus, if you bring down Area51, you will bring down all of that shit. It's as simple as that.

Listen to what Jock tells you in the Underworld.

Helios was kinda like Skynet, it has a presence inside every computer.

Wrong, that's Daedalus. After Daedalus malfunctioned and escaped from MJ12, they learned from their mistakes and made sure Icarus and later Helios was centralized in the Aquinas Hub in Area51.

unfortunately Deus Ex's story is too much of a ripoff of Escape from LA.. and thats particularly why I think they could have done SOOO much more. Kurt Russel sucks btw! Escape from LA is not Cyberpunk... They could've done better.

What? With Snake Plissken? You're kidding... why not just choose Mad Max or Terminator?

The style of the game however is brilliant, apart from JCs jacket and glasses and armor which were added last min to rip off the film BLADE. (its that OBVIOUS!) JC seems too much like Blade bad bad bad - Ive seen pictures of him from 2000 that don't look anything like the final.

In my opinion, Blade looks fine and so does JC Denton. The contexts of those two entertainment products are so different from each other, they could've made JC look exactly like Wesley Snipes for all that matters, nobody would give a damn (well... except you, for some reason).

The ending from escape from LA- taken from the script.

That sounds a lot like the Area 51 ending, yes. However... there are three endings in Deus Ex. They're allowed to grab one of them from another story. It seems you're berating Deus Ex from stealing a lot of elements from various movies and books. In my opinion, that is a pretty strange thing to criticize. Deus Ex is, in its very nature, a composite of every conspiracy theory ever to spring forth from the most paranoid minds of mankind. Why not criticize the game for ripping off all those rambling theories? Sure, Deus Ex is stealing with arms and legs from pretty much all even vaguely cyberpunk stories ever created, but is that a problem? I don't think so, why do you? As I see it, it would only be a problem if all those elements fit badly together or if they were all stolen from the same book or the same movie. Combining elements from a large array of previous works into a new production is not ripping off: It's how art works

It's how imagination itself works.

[Mr_Cyberpunk]

That is the most astoundingly irrelevant thing I have ever seen. Deus Ex is science fiction.

The important word there was SCIENCE FICTION. I agree with you that yes it is a story so it can Assume that. I just think Area 51 isn't exactly the most brilliant place to put it though. I think the problem lies where they linked Echelon to the Internet and Echelon to Area 51. Was Area 51 was only linked to the earliest stages of Echelon, they phased it out in the 1980s and the base was shut down. (cause Echelon evolved past Area 51) Area 51 was just a place where the US built all its Illegal Spy Planes and Stealth Bombers (used in the very early stages of Echelon). I think Mt Weather was more suitable for the ending if u ask me. The moon was a little far fetched

Helios was centralized in the Aquinas Hub in Area51

Where JC denton blew its brains out! - Obviously they didn't learn..

What? With Snake Plissken? You're kidding... why not just choose Mad Max or Terminator?

I refered to Escape from LA because of the prequel Escape from New York. Though they are basically the same film just recycled. (they changed very little of the story) That film has had too much of an influence on games and it pisses me off.

Terminator was for gunther because he's a killing machine. And the whole Skynet deally. OH god why didn't they put Texas in the game

Mad Max.. umm, well it would've been that way if u had based the Game in Adelaide and made Area 51, Pine Creek. Same THING!

Combining elements from a large array of previous works into a new production is not ripping off: It's how art works Wink

But when i do it, people are like "eww, show some originality" so wtf?! I guess im just pissed off about those people

[Jetsetlemming]

The moon was a little far fetched

The moon mission wasn't for an endgame. I've been dying with curiousity at how Ion Storm planned to put JC into orbit, though. Rocket boost aug!

What about "stealth jets" are illegal, btw? Considering we openly admit to having them and show them off on the discovery channel and at USAF air shows all the time, it just seems it they were breaking some international law by having them, we'd be a bit more quiet about their existence.

[Jonas]

I just think Area 51 isn't exactly the most brilliant place to put it though. I think the problem lies where they linked Echelon to the Internet and Echelon to Area 51. Was Area 51 was only linked to the earliest stages of Echelon, they phased it out in the 1980s and the base was shut down. (cause Echelon evolved past Area 51) Area 51 was just a place where the US built all its Illegal Spy Planes and Stealth Bombers (used in the very early stages of Echelon). I think Mt Weather was more suitable for the ending if u ask me. The moon was a little far fetched

But in DX's world, Echelon was never phased out. Daedalus was Echelon 3. Stop talking about the real world and base your arguments in the game's fiction instead. Oh and PLEASE stop judging Deus Ex by its realism, DX didn't even PRETEND realism, you might as well judge Lord of the Rings by its realism.

I refered to Escape from LA because of the prequel Escape from New York. Though they are basically the same film just recycled. (they changed very little of the story) That film has had too much of an influence on games and it pisses me off.

I would like some examples here. Your dismissal of Mad Max on similar terms leads me to believe you're confusing the basic structure of classic Hollywood cinema with the narratives in these very specific movies. I doubt a lot of games have really been that influenced by Escape from New York, I think that movie is just a really typical example of the now nearly mandatory structure that Hollywood has been basing all their movies on since the 50's. And ESPECIALLY since Star Wars. A lot of story-centric games have adopted this structure as well, because it works.

Combining elements from a large array of previous works into a new production is not ripping off: It's how art works

But when i do it, people are like "eww, show some originality" so wtf?! I guess im just pissed off about those people

There are two possible explanations:

Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different. The good poet welds his theft into a whole of feeling which is unique, utterly different from that from which it was torn; the bad poet throws it into something which has no cohesion. A good poet will usually borrow from authors remote in time, or alien in language, or diverse in interest.

Either those people have no idea how art is made, or you are just an "immature poet". I've never read, seen, or played anything you've made, so I'm not trying to determine which it is. Nor do I really care. Just don't take your bitterness out on Deus Ex

[Mr_Cyberpunk]

Okay so I don't know as much about Writing as you. big deal

I do know how art is made - art as in Video Games. Unfortunately all I've ever had in responce is just a whole lot of Negative crit on how Unrealistic my ideas are both in terms of Resources and in terms of Story. Im using Deus Ex as a case to figure out the flaws in the game as well as the story, and I'm sorry if this argument is annoying you but I need to look at how the story was really generated. And its not like the Design Document is just sitting on an FTP somewhere now is it!

or at least something different

I think thats where I fit in as a game developer. I try things that are different and people give me shit.. I try things that are too similar and people give me shit...

Thats the frustration i've been having with all of my work.

Im not taking it out on Deus Ex, rather trying to figure out why it worked so well and then figure out a better way of doing it. But this offtopic discussion i've started focuses on the negative. The stuff that I think needed some work to be original rather than copies of films.

I always get criticised for making my games too cliche... I guess it was wrong of me to criticise Deus Ex in the same way, but I was trying to think how exactly did Deus Ex get made the way it did. And find a style that was Unique for another unrelated matter.

Sorry if i've been annoying you.

[Dominic_Denton]

Hmm.....this thread has drifted away from it's topic.

*snaps fingers in the air* Ahem, moderator?

=EDIT=Oops, didn't mean to post that one above, sorry.=

[Trestkon]

=EDIT=Oops, didn't mean to post that one above, sorry.=

Double post removed.