Why isn't Skyrim an RPG? I don't understand. Everybody calls it an rpg. Everybody talks about it as though it's an rpg. And what do you mean by the statement "it isn't an rpg" - do you mean its not in the same category as Deus Ex? As Fallout? As Baldurs Gate?

Oh, an I believe it's the negative comments you made 4-5 pages back. They had a negative vibe to them...telling people to hold off on buying it, for one...

Jaedar didn't buy the game, he pirated it.

Does not compute for me. DX is an FPS/RPG.(FPS/RPG /=/ FPS+RPG)

Why is skyrim an rpg? Because it has progression elements? I guess Call of Duty is an rpg too then. You can even create your own classes in it! And it has levels!

Because it features dialogue and inventory? I guess that makes all adventure games and CYOA games rpgs too.

I realize that this was a bit rude and strawmanny, but I think it is to the point as well.
Skyrim might contain things which you'll often find in RPGs, but I think you'll find the same comparison valid for many other genres as well.


You say one bad thing about it and suddenly its all "Dissenters will inevitably abhor". I fail to see why making negative comments=hate. I've yet to make up my mind about Skyrim. Kind of like it so far, but I find that these games often don't reveal their true colors until quite a few hours in to the game.


I'll tell you this though: Skyrim is better than Oblivion.
As for Morrowind: Yeah, you might not have been forced to powergame, but you certainly were rewarded for it in abundance. From this we can either conclude the developers made a mistake, or that they wanted you to. Considering they kept the system for Oblivion, I think the latter is more likely.

And if you have a five-wheeled carriage, surely fixing it entails removing the fifth wheel?

While you have a point, I am wondering where the boundaries of the genre RPG are for you. Is Oblivion an RPG? Is Mass Effect an RPG? Is Diablo an RPG?

I don't think there is anything so ill-defined as the term RPG. For me I think the feeling that the game is about improving your stats, as opposed to getting bigger guns would define an RPG. So the abolition of attributes has made it perhaps 'less' of an RPG, but in all fairness, what's the use of those stats anyway, if not to influence health/stamina/mana.

For me RPGs are all about (player) character development. That's the only sensible definition I can work out. Half Life 2, for instance, isn't an RPG, for Gordon Freeman's character doesn't develop during the game; in fact he doesn't really have a character. Deus Ex was an RPG (I don't think it's very useful to distinguish between any RPG and FPS RPGs, for a medieval fantasy RPG may also be in first person and what's the difference between shooting arrows in first person and firing bullets? There is a difference in setting but not that much in terms of gameplay) for JC Denton developed during the game because of actions taken by the player. A player might end up with a stealthy moralfag, or a guns a blazin moralfag, or a stealthy asshole &c. IW wasn't really an RPG, since the player character began as a whining idiot and ended as a whining idiot and there wasn't much room for specializing in any direction.
Morrowind was an RPG because a player might develop his character from a nobody with no skills to be a stealthy mage, or a heavy knight or whatever you want, who became the hortator and hero of Morrowind and those same characters might be noble or dirty scoundrels.
Oblivion, therefore, didn't work as well as Morrowind or Deus Ex as an RPG, for the player started out as somebody who did awesome stuff and ended as somebody who did awesome stuff, and because of a lack of interesting sidequests there really wasn't much room to develop any sense of morality.* Skyrim seems to be going the same way (I played it a few hours yesterday with some friends) though at least levelling is done better this time so it's possible to end up being a specific kind of mage or archer (or whatever) again instead of having to choose the right skillset or getting one's ass handed.

*Even if the game has no statcounter for morality and doesn't really let the player choose different options which have a certain moral background (like choosing different endings and a non-lethal or lethal approach in Deus Ex) if the setting is developed enough the player will still end up with a certain feeling of morality on which he will base his choices. Which is why I never stole anything in Morrowind and I stole everything I could find in Oblivion.

Nb. Defining an RPG as a "game in which players play a role" is absolutely useless as any good game will make the player do this (be it a hero in Tamriel, a Hitman in Hitman, an anti-terrorist agent in Deus Ex, a silent hero in Half Life, a world war 2 soldier in Call of duty and so on). Defining an RPG as a game with stats is pretty useless as well as many games that nobody considers RPGs (like GTA: San Andreas) also use stats, and as stats are basically a simple way of showing the player the consequences of his actions.

aRPG, depends on which one, No


Sup, imma see you made an unfounded statement. Allow me to retort with what oblivions stats did:
Agility
Affects your total Fatigue, damage dealt by ranged weapons, and your steadiness in combat.
Endurance
Affects your total Fatigue, as well as your starting health and your health gain upon leveling up.
Intelligence
Affects your total Magicka.
Luck
Affects everything you do in a small way.
Personality
Affects your ability to gain information and better prices from NPCs.
Speed
Affects how fast you move.
Strength
Affects your total encumbrance, your total Fatigue and the damage done by melee attacks.
Willpower
Affects the rate at which Magicka regenerates, as well as your total Fatigue.
(sourceylink)

And that is just in Oblivion, which is far from the best implementation of stats.

@gamer0004
Your definition is interesting, but I find it flawed(as are all definitions I've come across). A fundamental flaw in it seems to be that it isn't really related to the mechanics, but merely if it allows your narrative presence to change. This is certainly something that should be in a good RPG, and it should certainly be largely decided by the player. Ultimately however, games are about gameplay, and the genre divisions must also be(at least to me).

The problem when trying to define what an RPG is that you will inevitably run into some minor quibbles that make the description for too strict and inelegeant, or you'll wind up with something that encompasses almost every game ever made(such as RPG: A game in which you play a role)

Aha, from somebody who hasn't played the genre that much it is that, but with your choice of what role you play, and how your character "lives" in the world, and how that world reacts to your character. In Alpha Protocol that's the closest I've ever felt I was the thing my character was supposed to be. Getting XP, or levelling, or putting 2.5678 points into endurance so you can wield your level 2 broadsword, while being an element, doesn't define RPGs to me.

It's about the whole package, of gameplay, setting and story and the interaction between those elements.

Aemer is wrong about me again, obviously.

I will try Skyrim. Just after Oblivion I am not going to give my full buck to Bethesda. Also, you get nickled and dimed with DLC. I probably get the Gold edition with everything in it, for less than what you paid already. Standard modern practice really...

However it makes me sad to see RPG fans go on about how a complex system as Morrowind's is "wrong" because 'you are forced to powerplay' (which is just you doing that, not the game system, as much as you try to say "I am not a powergamer!!!") and completely removing it is a 'definite improvement'. Makes me sad. The leveling and experience system definitely sounds uttertly boring now.
It makes my RPG-loving heart weep.
But of course that's not all what makes a game, there's also exploration (definitely in sandbox) and missions and all the other things Oblivion did so horrible, and from what I hear Skyrim does better. Or is it calver-love?
I'll find it out myself... a long time later
In the meanwhile I am interested to hear what people say about it, how it compares to Morrowind and Oblivion and if they fix with patches the inherrent millions of bugs TES is infamous for (or the fanpatch comes around for me ).

Show of hands. Who here, who has actually played the game, thinks the new leveling and experience system is fun and interesting.

*raises hand*

Speaking of TES bugs, I have a book and a shovel that show up in my inentory, but when I try to give them as evidence to a lady storekeep, they ain't there. She keeps asking "haven't you something to give to me?"

*keeps hand down*

Suppose for a second that I agree with you. Suppose I think you are right about this. What does that mean? Why do you bring it up, why is it important?

Can you tell anything about a game from making this distinction? Do you feel like attaching the "not an rpg" label has some kind of meaning?

Is it a progression thing? TES are usually RPG's, but Skyrim is another beast, going so far that you would call it not an RPG even as you would call the prior entries RPG's ? What is it that you're getting at?

This is, as I said, ignoring my own feelings on the subject. I want to know what your message is, because simply categorizing a game using genre terms feels very unclear.

Games, just like movies, and books and what have you, have genres because it is supposed to help people figure out if they'll like it. It's a group to categorize things in to make it easier for the consumer and the publisher. Is this what you were asking about?

I think its important to classify things in the right genre.
Especially when it comes to RPGs, for personal reasons(ie, I want more of them, and if every game claims to be one then the chance of real ones become slighter).

I realize most people don't care, and will probably think I'm petty, but that's the way it goes.

Well that's certainly one use for genres.

So your point is, when you say this isn't an RPG, you're saying people who expect an RPG shouldn't expect one. It's a criticism of the game, saying that the game is lacking something.

So what things do you believe the game is lacking? Which things would have to be different for the game to be an RPG, to meet that criterion?