The US Economy

fox · Post by **fox** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 11:49 am

Smike wrote:Times like these remind me of the mid 90s, when everyone was a movie critic. Now everyone's an armchair politician and economist, while no one actually knows a damned thing about any of the subjects.

Everybody is a movie critic but the comparison between economy and movies is flawed anyway. Economists need to have deep knowledge about the inner processes they are talking about (since that is what it is all about), movie critics don't (since it is usually all about the end product) - although it would help them a great deal.

chris the cynic · Post by **chris the cynic** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 2:23 pm

Someone, Jerry Falwell I believe, once offered a free microfilm Bible, just call now. My dad thought he might like a microfilm Bible, and even if it turned out he wouldn't, who cares? All he was doing was spending Falwell's money, not a bad thing.

He ended up on Falwell's mailing list as a result. He got a survey with questions like, "Do you enjoy killing babies?" which he answered in the affirmative. He ended up off Falwell's mailing list.

The technique Falwell was using was a tried and true one. The way you ask a question effects the answer you get, Falwell wanted to be able to say almost everyone opposed abortion rights.

Why do I bring this up? News organizations are saying that the American people are massively opposed to the economic plan. They're being far less than honest. No one is intentionally doing what Falwell did, but they are doing it anyway. If you ask the question one way 57% of the people support the plan, ask it another way and 28% of the people support it. The first way 30% oppose it, the second way 50% oppose it. For some reason new organizations are ignoring the positive results and claiming the response is universally negative.

[Edited] There was a "3" that had no business being where it was. That has been corrected, the content has not changed.

Post by **Jonas** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:17 pm

fox wrote:Economists need to have deep knowledge about the inner processes they are talking about (since that is what it is all about), movie critics don't (since it is usually all about the end product) - although it would help them a great deal.

I think you're confusing critics with reviewers. A reviewer exists to give consumers an impression of whether or not they should buy a certain product. A critic exists to put a product into certain contexts or analyze or interpret it to cater to enthusiasts and hobbyists (as opposed to just consumers). Some reviewers are also critics. Most aren't.

fox · Post by **fox** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:51 pm

No, everyone is a critic in a way. Some are better informed and educated than others, which makes some people better critics than others, yes but in opposition to reviews criticism is not always meant to be broadcasted. Everybody reflects on the observation of, say, a movie, wether it be to himself or other people. Everybody at least goes through an inner rating process for almost everything he/she is experiencing. That is an integral part of the human nature although some people are not fully aware of it. Knowledge about the subject is very helpful - especially when trying to formulate/communicate the critique - but it's not an requirement. If somebody didn't understand the end product because of lacking the necessary knowledge, it could be a major point of critique, that those behind the end product (movie) didn't manage to provide this knowledge as part of the experience.

You may argue that criticism is defined as something more sophisiticated than that inner process of judgement, something that has to be done knowingly but even then movie criticism doesn't require more than common sense (to be recognized as criticism). Of course it leads to difficulties whem a critic doesn't know the proper names for things he criticizes but that doesn't make his arguments disappear. My point however was that contrary to that an uninformed discussion about economy is impossible - which is why Smike's comparison is flawed.

Smike · Post by **Smike** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:30 pm

Actually, Fox, I wasn't even making a comparison. In the 90s the phrase "...everyone's a critic!" was said so much it got annoying and people started to say it less. (Just like "Not!" - anyone remember that one?) It seems like today we talk about politics and the economy in the same way and just as often as we talked about movies 10 to 15 years ago. (Not that we stopped talking about movies.) Just an observation, you can take it or leave it.

I have to say though, Fox, that's a whole other massive subject you introduced! All I can say is that if I WERE to draw the same comparison you thought I had, I don't think I could do it justice in a forum post!

Very true Jonas. I still hate the lot of them with a burning, fiery passion that can not be described and wish bad things on their families DAILY though!

Post by **Jonas** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:41 pm

I love critics because (huge ego that I am) I know they will love me and everything I make, as soon as I'm in a position to actually make something. And I know that any critics that'll care to deal with TNM will love it, because anything else is simply impossible.

You too should love critics.

fox · Post by **fox** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:43 pm

Ok, it was an analogy than... and it didn't work because of the same reasons. But nevermind, I agree that people talk too much about things they don't know so I shall act as a model and shut up.

This thread is crap.

Post by **Jonas** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:46 pm

fox wrote:This thread is crap.

Everyone's a critic.

fox · Post by **fox** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:48 pm

*annoyed*

chris the cynic · Post by **chris the cynic** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:03 pm

The stabilization plan failed to pass the House, the markets nosedived.

I have a plan if the US economy collapses, it isn't a good plan but it is the best I have at the moment (best is the wrong word, it is the only plan I have.) If the US dollar is significantly devalued relative to other currencies I'll start an international business. All I need to do is sell to people with a stronger currency. Canadians, Australians, the French, whatever.

Ok, it's a crappy plan. Even with a significantly devalued dollar it would likely be cheaper to buy locally than to have things imported from here. Also economic collapse would spread, so there might not be a better market to sell too.

Damned if I know how to depression proof a life.

Why do I bring up a crappy plan? Because I'm not kidding that is the best I can come up with. How does one seriously prepare for a significant economic downturn? What would you do? I've never thought of it before and it is an interesting academic exercise.

Obviously the simplest thing is to be self sufficient, if you grow your own food and need nothing from the outside economics don't concern you. But not everyone has that opportunity. I find myself wondering, what would be necessary to have personal economic stability in the face of national (or global) economic disaster? Is such a thing even theoretically possible?

-

I'm interested in a great many hypothetical things, I hope this is one of them. I don't believe the sky is falling, but it is disturbing that the sky could fall. There has to be a better economic system. No one thing should be able to stop the whole system, no matter how unlikely it is that said thing would happen.

God and I don't talk much. I talk, she remains silent. Very one sided. Even so, I hope to God credit doesn't freeze.

I feel like the catalyzer on the port compression coil is on the verge of failing. Bonus points to anyone who gets the reference. I'm not sure that people understand what is happening, this is the worst economic situation since the Great Depression but it is nothing compared to the Great Depression. Things can get a whole lot worse but there is no reason that they need to.

-

So once again, the point of this post:
What economic approach, if any, do you think would be depression proof?
I know we're not economists, but I don't care. I'm not looking for something to implement; I'm looking for what people think.

fox · Post by **fox** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:19 pm

When life seems jolly rotten - people want to escape -> strong demand for cheap and heavy drugs ->

you need to become serious with drug dealing/production

EER · Post by **EER** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:51 pm

chris the cynic wrote:So once again, the point of this post:
What economic approach, if any, do you think would be depression proof?
I know we're not economists, but I don't care. I'm not looking for something to implement; I'm looking for what people think.

Buy gold bars, or real estate. Make sure that you don't have any currency left that would devaluate.

Drug dealing might be an option, but still in the end, you'd be left with piles of dollars which would be worthless.

fox · Post by **fox** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:59 pm

EER wrote:Drug dealing might be an option, but still in the end, you'd be left with piles of dollars which would be worthless.

Why? Obviously people would have to pay in kind - food, sex, gas, manpower... Maybe part of the "customers" can be converted into slaves, which opens up a whole new economic branch for you.

Smike · Post by **Smike** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 10:01 pm

Fox: Nah, wasn't making an analogy either, just observing a cultural trend. Economics and politics are points of discussion for the youth culture of today, and that reminds me of how often we talked about movies in the 90s. Yesterday we were talking about fruit, now it's turnips. Wow, funny that. Get me? Two separate points:
1. I was reminiscing - "Times like these remind me of the mid 90s..."
2. Because I've observed something - "Now everyone's an armchair politician and economist..."

I can sort of see how that could be confusing to anyone, though you ARE German, so it's in your blood to be detrimentally concerned with details I suppose.

(Just like it's in my blood to be detrimentally concerned with surfing and carrot juice.)

Chris, excellent story about the microfilm bible. And hey, the day I don't want to hear what people think is the day I become a religious official. I just wish those discussions wouldn't sound so much like Polar Bear parties so often, you know?

Jonas you make much sense. Of course it is impossible for them to say anything critical about any of OUR work! Like, yeah. Duh.

EER · Post by **EER** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 10:05 pm

fox wrote:food, sex, gas...

Food won't stay good for long, so it's not suitable as a currency
Sex would be ok, although I'm having a hard time deciding what the price for a cup of coffee would be. And what about the vending machines?

Gas would be ok, although you'd have to sell it for it to be useful. For sex probably.