Looking forward to this

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justanotherfan
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Re: Looking forward to this

Post by justanotherfan »

Akerfeldt wrote:I'm not sure what you mean by this. Are you saying that artists don't all draw exactly the same way?...Holy shit.
Uh, yeah? Still, I did say "artistic inspiration" instead of "drew different characters" (which the discussions fixed).
But I never expected so much of the audience to hate on his art.
I was sarcastic since I didn't expect he'd mind, but obviously I've touched someone else's nerves. If he were here, it could be trolling, so I'm sorry that bugged you. I honestly don't remember hate, but I remember constructive criticism, discussion, and a troll that left (Tonnochi? I forget)
I've often gone to great lengths to be very discriminating...so I can avoid all contact with that 90% of the human race (the fucktards). So they can be idiots in their own social circles where they discuss how much they love everything that is shit and remain completely ignorant of everything that is good.
Ok, wow.
Alex is a talented artist and I'm dedicated to animating those new characters well enough to do his work justice
That's excellent. And I can't imagine anyone disagreeing today. A walk through the moddb screenshots would discredit it.
I don't necessarily envy his ability to just say fuck everyone and leave but I can sympathize and from a cost/benefit analysis he made the right decision.
Not to be insensitive again, but aside from his frustration and departure, I feel things worked out well. HDTP has excellent characters now. Again, we can see that in the later screenshots from 2006. I can post the pre-discussion Anna/Gunther to show I'm not trolling; the Anna thread was deleted IIRC by Metche or HDTP (an unauthorized screenshot) and my later post with the screenshot back in 2006 was deleted, but I probably still have it here somewhere. I know I still have green gunther.

If you thought I meant today's HDTP, I can understand that since I believe you weren't active during Alex's work, and maybe you didn't read my post before that one. Otherwise, if a critical word from me makes me a troll, I can do better than that. If you know I'm not, you've a right to vent frustrations.

--
This thread started with a great sentiment, and I apologize that I've drawn a negative response.
SyntaxError
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Re: Looking forward to this

Post by SyntaxError »

When you are going from character models that seem to consist of 20 polygons and a 64x64 texture to what HDTP promises to acchieve you will need some interpretation from the artists. There just isn't enough information present in the vanilla models to avoid that.

So I see why for some this might differ from their personal ideas (of the models), but is it enough to warrant hate? Internets is a strange place sometimes.
justanotherfan
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Re: Looking forward to this

Post by justanotherfan »

SyntaxError wrote:When you are going from character models that seem to consist of 20 polygons and a 64x64 texture to what HDTP promises to acchieve you will need some interpretation from the artists. There just isn't enough information present in the vanilla models to avoid that.

So I see why for some this might differ from their personal ideas (of the models), but is it enough to warrant hate? Internets is a strange place sometimes.
It was a big part of the problem, absolutely. People imagined the characters in different ways, because the information wasn't there in the first place. It led to different feelings and understandings of characters. For example, Paul is sympathetic, but until screenshots were released from certain angles, he looked gaunt and evil and angry. I wish the HFS driver in the latest Linux kernel didn't cause panics, since I'd have the screenshot already of Anna as a Bride of Frankenstein; players who developed crushes on Anna as a plot love interest got crazy until she was redeveloped. Before her, I remember the regular-girl Anna prototype, cute and better than DX's graphics, but more Pollyanna than murderess.

I don't know how Alex and other artists interpreted, but it was partially psychic. Gunther looks exactly like Gunther to me. When HDTP v.1 was released, _nobody_ said anything negative about Gunther IIRC.

There's other reasons I could write essays on. DX1s characters drove the story, so their appearance is damn important. A plantpot has to be a plantpot, which is easy, while JC has to capture JC-ness, which is vague and indefinable. Screenshots from modeling programs aren't in-game, and that changes perceptions. Even the presentation dictated reactions, with "This is 99.9% complete" versus "What do you think?" directing opinions.

I hate saying this since I'm thankful for Alex' work, but I'm glad the characters are where they are now even if he had to leave. That's the feeling I was trying to hide earlier. Screenshots may be less important now, when the initial screenshots of Nicolette eventually brought us the Nicolette shots we have now, but the screenshots are still so interesting and impressive. I hope they'll release more. I think my original drunken idea was that other things aren't characters, so they'll face less criticism. The guns faced extra criticism though, which I don't remember since I know nothing about weaponry. That sword is sweet though, and exactly what I was hoping for, so thanks Wokky. Hopefully it or its descendant is in HDTP.
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Re: Looking forward to this

Post by SyntaxError »

Would love to see those old screenshots, if you can make them available somehow. Just out of curiosity of how the characters came to be.
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Akerfeldt
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Re: Looking forward to this

Post by Akerfeldt »

justanotherfan wrote:It was a big part of the problem, absolutely.
There was no problem. Even from the perspective of the quality of Alex's work, which I don't think is in question, but even if it was it's not like there's free artists everywhere eager to fill his shoes, especially after the troll invasion. If some non-contributing, narrow-minded, cretin on the internet having a negative opinion of a work of art constitutes "a problem", then that exudes an extreme level of arrogance. No model or texture in this mod is bound by a democratic referendum on the internet. We don't need a focus group of twats to tell us what to change, anymore than we need the chairs of the troll council to tell us to hurry up and release. Or rather we shouldn't be listening to them at any rate.

I'm actually glad I didn't get involved when the shit was hitting the fan. I've already wasted too much time caring if someone thinks something in this mod isn't faithful to the original, or that it's taking too long. And I'm glad Alex has moved on to bigger and better things.
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Re: Looking forward to this

Post by DDL »

Unrelatedly, that sword is totally already in, and totally pimp.

Also, DDLVote++; for Akerfeldt to be made official HDTP spokesman. :P
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Re: Looking forward to this

Post by Akerfeldt »

lol sorry for flying off the handle.

And yes the sword is quite awesome. I wish I had a mo-cap suite so I could change the 3rd person attack animations so it doesn't look so ridiculous when they swing the sword.
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justanotherfan
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Re: Looking forward to this

Post by justanotherfan »

Akerfeldt wrote:There was no problem. Even from the perspective of the quality of Alex's work, which I don't think is in question...if some non-contributing, narrow-minded, cretin on the internet having a negative opinion of a work of art constitutes "a problem", then that exudes an extreme level of arrogance....Or rather we shouldn't be listening to them at any rate..
You're right, art doesn't have to be appreciated. Characters could be replaced by walking emoticons.

I'm a fan of DX. I'm a fan of HDTP since it's DX done better. I think that's why HDTP gets both extra trolling and constructive criticism; it's is important to fans. Someone wants to make a Vatican level mod for Unreal Tournament 1, great whatever, while HDTP fascinates.
I've already wasted too much time caring if someone thinks something in this mod isn't faithful to the original
Well, from my perspective, you're not wasting your time. Thanks to all HDTP for caring, even if it's erring on the side of caution.
Akerfeldt wrote:And yes the sword is quite awesome.
Seriously, the original has this pointy gray blob shadow on it. I looked at the new one, and the old one, "That was supposed to be a dragon". There is stitching, on the grip. It's even made to look like an actual Chinese Dao sword, instead of the weird medieval knight's crossguard hilt (I think, hard to tell. It could also be roofing tiles). That scuffing on the edge still gets me, that the sword has been carried, and has worn exactly where it would contact other surfaces.
SyntaxError wrote:Would love to see those old screenshots, if you can make them available somehow. Just out of curiosity of how the characters came to be.
Sweet, yeah. Here's the original Anna thread (there were two), but this is initial groundwork before the version I mentioned-
viewtopic.php?t=501
Turns out the troll was ZylonBane -- Tonnochi started later.
I tried to upload the avi of the Green-Gray Orange gunther, but it's still up as flash here-
http://www.moddb.com/mods/project-hdtp/ ... w#imagebox
HDTP had an old Photobucket account with some early screenshots of JC and Gunther etc-
http://smg.photobucket.com/home/hdtp
I only found this screenshot of Anna, and it doesn't seem to be online. This would be different angles of the final or near-final version, and is NOT the version I described earlier. I'll keep looking, but with the linux kernel's bugzilla down, I'm not sure when I'll be able to safely access my files.
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Akerfeldt
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Re: Looking forward to this

Post by Akerfeldt »

justanotherfan wrote:You're right, art doesn't have to be appreciated. Characters could be replaced by walking emoticons.
  • If you don't like it, don't play it.
  • Don't come in HERE and shit on us for our design decisions. Do it on your blog where you're a world leading 3D art critic.
I'm not saying the discussion around how our work could be improved is invalid, we do it often. I'm saying the opinions of the meaningless twats that frequent this forum are invalid.
justanotherfan wrote: Green Gunther and the Bride of Gunther.

Bride of Frankenstein

...constructive criticism;
Yeah that was constructive.
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SyntaxError
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Re: Looking forward to this

Post by SyntaxError »

Woah, keep calm, no need for that!


@justanotherfan:
Thanks for the links
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Jonas
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Re: Looking forward to this

Post by Jonas »

Now extremely torn between telling Akerfeldt to calm down because JAF is just being his usual facetious self, or begging JAF to please just fucking start using smilies already because you're pissing people off for no reason at all, ie. please stop trolling.
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Re: Looking forward to this

Post by Morpheus »

Hey, I was wondering, I have seen these screens before (exception being the sword which looks awesome better than original) but would anyone have a screenshot of any of the following that are finished that we have yet to see? (if any of these are indeed finished): black or attack (Green) helicopter, Statue of Liberty, Repair bot (or any of the robots really), Lockpick, Multitool, GEP Gun, Dragons Tooth Sword, Tracer Tong, nanokeyring, LAW or flamethower, stealth pistol, assault gun, mutt, cat, doberman or rat?
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Re: Looking forward to this

Post by ggrotz »

I don't know how Alex and other artists interpreted, but it was partially psychic. Gunther looks exactly like Gunther to me. When HDTP v.1 was released, _nobody_ said anything negative about Gunther IIRC.

There's other reasons I could write essays on. DX1s characters drove the story, so their appearance is damn important. A plantpot has to be a plantpot, which is easy, while JC has to capture JC-ness, which is vague and indefinable. Screenshots from modeling programs aren't in-game, and that changes perceptions. Even the presentation dictated reactions, with "This is 99.9% complete" versus "What do you think?" directing opinions.
I'll probably regret wading into this, but here goes...

As one of the people that had some "shock" as to the reinterpreted Gunther, a lot of it is just the idea of recognition. Could you put up screen shots of the old and the new in game and recognize them as the same character. Granted, a lot of people fill in things, but the danger is there with this project (and New Vision) of changing and reinterpreting the story line. As any two-bit director of a movie will tell you on a commentary track, the visuals are part of the story telling as well as anything else. For DX, if I changed JC Denton to look like Otis from Blue Shift and released it, people would complain, and rightly. As you say, a flower pot is a flower pot, but if I changed the "Nuke" soda cans to be blue and say "Belch" instead, there would rightfully be complaints, too. Granted, there are artistic licenses with details, but when you change some one else's work, especially someone's popularly beloved original work, there needs to be some effort to retain the original intent.

Of course, the example in other things we can point to is what Lucas did to Star Wars with his Special Special Special Special Edition releases. People rightfully complained not because he made things look less like ass than the originals, but because he changed elements of the movies entirely. Of course he missed the point releasing the complete original prints in the second DVD release, but the analogy holds. Making some special effect look the same and less like ass (borrowing one of Jonas's phrases, actually), is different than putting the acting travesty that is Hayden Christensen in Episode VI at the end, Ian McDiarmid in Episode V, adding creatures after the fact, changing around songs, adding prequel victory sequences, and so on. I understand Lucas furthered the travesty with this Blu-Ray release by removing all traces of Frank Oz's puppet in favor of CGI. Personally I would have just loved to have the originals cleaned up on DVD instead of what I ended up getting (yes I'll admit I was one of them waiting in line when they first released it).

While it is his original work, the analogy differs with changing around DX simply because it is a third-party effort. In some respects for such a thing it would be nice to have a signoff from the original art director of DX (or Spector), but the good thing about such efforts with video games is that if there is enough demand, someone will come along and make a mod to remove the "suck" out of HDTP if there ends up being any. Or there is always the option of not installing it. Or as I have with Gunther, get used to him not looking like a muscled German, but a pencil-thin Hannibal Lecter clone.

Whatever way it works out, it will work out in the end. I know I appreciate the efforts that have been made so far and will probably appreciate the rest of them even more when it gets done.
justanotherfan
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Re: Looking forward to this

Post by justanotherfan »

Maybe it is time I moved on. I've been just another fan for a long time, and it shows in my posts the last couple years. With HDTPv1, NV, TNM, and the updated renderers, I've had more than I was looking for. Dirty secret is I barely play games anymore. I've enjoyed the forums, but it's hard to keep up in conversations turning to games I've never heard of. That, and the angry trolling isn't offset by the saccharine praise when there's nothing else to talk about in the subforum.
ggrotz wrote:I'll probably regret wading into this, but here goes...
Oh ggrotz, famous last words. Delete your post, I'm taking the hit.
---


Just to respond with a directed non-facetious actual-trolling sour note, it's great that you're still working on UT/HDTP's impossible animation after these years, since your Ut2004/DXR is closed-source and buried. Considering that ignominy with "I avoid all contact with 90% of the human race (the fucktards)", your egotism is self-defeating and you'll never escape differing opinions. Swear all you like, that's your curse.
--
Trolling should lack substance or be already refuted, but THAT is trying to piss someone off. If there's no reason for it, and I did just take the bait after being asked not to, I accept a ban. Sorry Jonas, I know I'm forcing your hand and I could have to email Narcissism Inc a thanks. On the cost/benefit, I lack HDTP worker value, especially since I'm OK with going and I'll have negative opinions in the future.
Akerfeldt wrote:lol sorry for flying off the handle.
You're venting frustration. You're venting a lot, but I understand. Avoid doing it internally to HDTP.
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Renmazuo
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Re: Looking forward to this

Post by Renmazuo »

Image

"I never asked for this."

On a more serious ( O:) ) note, weapons are nice and all but I think what the clamoring unwashed masses really want to see screenshots of is some sparkly HD future toilets, and flagpoles (edit whoops didn't know flagpoles were done in HDTP r1; shows how much I pay attention), but especially toilets. BRING ON THE COMMODES. Shifter's public hygeine awareness bonus even would stand to benefit from an unflushed version... :shock:

disclaimer HDTP is the tits peace and love y'all
Last edited by Renmazuo on Tue Sep 13, 2011 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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