Deus Ex Advancement Mod v7 Release

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Made in China
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Re: Deus Ex Advancement Mod v7 Release

Post by Made in China »

While you are correct and the spy drone has been upgraded and has some advantages over the ADS, it still doesn't give a good incentive to choose it.
Not only is it slow, but having to go through the same path twice for recon is simply tedious for the player. Plus, detonating it every time you stop using it can be a disadvantage for non-lethal runs. Also, mine disarming really becomes pathetic in late-game when many enemies are carrying rocket launchers and are throwing grenades. ADS is just far more versatile in that regard.
The noisemaker is a nice addition, though.

I don't have any solution for going out of bounds using the glider. You could probably do it quite easily right now, but using the glider will probably raise the risk of an accidental out of bounds. Maybe a timed glider? Like 10 seconds of slower descent, whichever runs out first?

And yeah. This is your mod, and I already said that I personally would've loved it, but I can see it not really fitting in. If your vision doesn't overlap with my imagination, that's fine - I'm just trying to share and justify my own ideas.
The Jensen thing was a joke, I don't really like the direction of Human Revolution. Deus Ex beats it by a mile regardless of mods.
Cybernetic pig
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Re: Deus Ex Advancement Mod v7 Release

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Not only is it slow, but having to go through the same path twice for recon is simply tedious for the player. Plus, detonating it every time you stop using it can be a disadvantage for non-lethal runs.
It is pretty fast at max level, and you can deactivate it quietly by pressing the aug activate/deactivate key again. I had to do the latter just a second ago to double check though. There's so much content in this game!
I don't really like the direction of Human Revolution. Deus Ex beats it by a mile regardless of mods.
Yes. All the Looking Glass classics destroy the majority of these new half-assed and misguided attempts at FP RPGs.
rdaneel
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Re: Deus Ex Advancement Mod v7 Release

Post by rdaneel »

I would be opposed to allowing the Spy Drone glider. This smacks to me of grenade climbing, it's not emergent game play so much as an exploit of the clipping system that leads to a broken game.

To me, I always assumed the Spy Drone was microscopic (it is after all a "nano" augmentation) and that explained why the NPCs couldn't see it. I realize the in-game model was always large, but I just took this as a required element of suspension of disbelief.

I think the current GMDX v8 additions to the Spy Drone are satisfactory and maybe even make it a little bit better than the ADS (with the choice really being about stealth vs combat and not good versus bad which is right in line with the spirit of GMDX), although I would still like to see the spy drone able to interact with the world (push buttons, access computers and such) and I would trade the noisemaker function for that world interaction if I had to take my pick. I just think it's more realistic for what a Spy Drone would be supposed to do. I also had a thought that the power drain of the Spy Drone could be based on distance traveled rather than units/second, which would also create a sort of interesting trade-off.

I do want to say that I find the reduced amount of explosives on the harder difficulties very problematic in GMDX. I'm one of those weird people that sort of thinks about alternate builds and ways to go through Deus Ex on a regular basis and one of the only main types of character build I haven't tried is a pure "explosives" run. I am trying that now in GMDX v8 but it is FANTASTICALLY difficult due to the lack of available grenades. I will say that it has made me get EXTREMELY creative with every single explosive, flammable, or toxic decoration I find throughout the game, which is fun in a way, but it's just too hard. There needs to be some kind of small but plentiful type of bomb that only demo masters can use, or JC needs to be able to find more bombs at master skill, or he needs to be able to tinker to create them, or something. If this feature was included in GMDX it would be... well, I guess it would be "da bomb".

Oh and I want to say that the perks, the new weapon mods, the little touch ups on level design, the new highly alert NPC behavior (hey it's almost like these guys are paying attention!), the way mantling was implemented, *most* of the skills and augs enhancements and balancing (I have a few small complaints, especially about the "passive" augs being too powerful), the new combined stamina/swimming system (which is GREAT!), the new non-lethal ammo for the PS20, crossbow, and other new firing types for the guns - is all really excellent. This is probably the best, most well polished, and most sophisticated upgrade for the base game we could have hoped for, and I'm really looking forward to the final version of v8 when some of the minor tweaks are completed. Especially the explosives situation mentioned above (hint hint)!
Cybernetic pig
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Re: Deus Ex Advancement Mod v7 Release

Post by Cybernetic pig »

The problem with explosives is that they are the most versatile & powerful tool in the game and can easily deal with the majority of challenges a player faces.
Yes, making more grenades obtainable for master demolitions investors would perhaps be acceptable to keep a grenadier playstyle still viable, but they are so powerful and conflict with just about everything if you're not careful. I'd rather eliminate one niche playstyle (grenades-only) than have all styles that make use of grenades be brainless. Explosives should be rare, it's game design law.
Currently as is demolitions skill is a very viable & balanced investment, so I'm happy with that.
rdaneel
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Re: Deus Ex Advancement Mod v7 Release

Post by rdaneel »

Yeah, I know what you mean about grenade balancing being so critical. I just think there's a solution to make the playstyle viable and it would add a lot of interest to the game. If more explosives did become available somehow at master, whether through tinkering or breaking open TNT crates or just making a new type of bomb that only masters can use, the skill would need to be correspondingly more expensive.

I think all the enhancements to the skills including perks are a huge and impressive improvement as is, however.

Although I will say that the sonic transducer sensor should be more expensive. Or else I would recommend to swap the sonic transducer sensor for the current master perk (can't remember what it's called) since I think that's more appropriate in terms of balance - the STS is extremely useful and powerful, more appropriate as a master perk, whereas I think the ability to cycle between timed and contact mode is more appropriate for the advanced level perk.

In a way, STS makes more grenade ammunition available since planted mines become a defacto gift versus a threat.
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Re: Deus Ex Advancement Mod v7 Release

Post by rdaneel »

Oh, and I thought of another thing: I really, really like the stamina system. I think it's realistic and adds tension and interest to the game. However there's one thing that bothers me about it, which is that stamina doesn't generate while JC is crouched but stationary. That's weirdly unrealistic. If anything stamina would regenerate fastest when crouched and still - I know that's how it works for me anyway. Now, on the other hand, stamina should drop fastest when crouched and moving - crouch walking is actually really hard and exhausting if you try it in real life.
Cybernetic pig
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Re: Deus Ex Advancement Mod v7 Release

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Yeah I will change that.
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Re: Deus Ex Advancement Mod v7 Release

Post by Cybernetic pig »

New AI feature: http://www.moddb.com/mods/gmdx/videos/v80-ai

A new addition to v8.0 AI functionality: military-trained NPCs occasionally throw flares if they suspect the player to be hiding in relatively dark areas. This can also be disabled via an in-game options menu.
Last edited by Cybernetic pig on Wed Aug 05, 2015 12:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
rdaneel
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Re: Deus Ex Advancement Mod v7 Release

Post by rdaneel »

Oh nice, now the NPCs in GMDX are even scarier. ;-) I watched the video, this seems really cool actually.

A few niggles on AI behavior generally:

1. GMDX - Cameras alarm on spotting corpses. This makes the game more challenging, but it leads to some weird contradictions. So cameras are smart enough to distinguish between friend and foe (they alarm on the player, but not on NPCs, okay), and now they are also smart enough to distinguish between a live alert NPC and a dead/unconscious one, but they are completely oblivious to moving objects. Doors can open and close in their field of vision, and it's possible to push a crate or a box right up to a camera and then get under it's field of view without being "seen". Furthermore these "smart" cameras freak out on the sight of a whole intact body but again return to calm when that body is gibbed into bones and gore. Explosions, gunshots, disturbances, and even being repeatedly struck with a blunt object have no effect on cameras going into alarm. What's my point? Well, I guess my point is that in vanilla Deus Ex the cameras seemed somewhat dumb and that was fine, because that's what was needed for the gameplay. But adding this little bit of "intelligence" to them sort of opens a can of worms immersion-wise. It makes the game a lot harder, for sure. There are a couple of areas where this new camera behavior (combined with the new highly alert NPCs) makes it really impossible to take a particular path in a particular style that used to be available in vanilla, because you WILL set off an alarm no matter what you do. But to me, this particular feature doesn't really fit with the spirit of what the game is going for. But also to make the cameras even "smarter" for example to have them react to all the items listed above, would make the game much too difficult.

2. GMDX or vanilla? Not sure... I have gotten into a few firefights with NPCs in my latest playthrough of GMDX v8 where I tried to run them out of ammo but they seemed to just never run out. Not sure if this is a bug, or exploit, or just vanilla behavior but I seemed to remember that you could eventually run NPCs out of ammo and they would switch to a melee weapon. I haven't been able to get this to happen in GMDX. Also, it's weird that NPCs seem to have hundreds of rounds of ammunition but when you loot their corpse you find, like, 2 bullets. I haven't tried this yet but I had a thought that if the NPCs do have unlimited or extremely high ammo now it would be possible to exploit the behavior to collect a bunch of darts. I will test the theory.

3. GMDX or vanilla? Not sure... Alarms have always bothered me, and I'm not really seeing the enhanced behavior of GMDX in this regard. I know the NPCs are supposed to go into a permanent state of high alert once an alarm has been sounded but I'm not really noticing it. I have always thought that alarms in Deus Ex should be a lot more meaningful but what really happens if an alarm goes off is you just hide for a few seconds and then everything is back to normal. It seems like things should really change. NPCs should come running to the alarm from all over the level, security systems that were previously deactivated should get reactivated, the whole thing should take a long time to cool down. In particular if you set off an alarm in a particular room there should definitely not be any NPC in that room that doesn't react. I'm thinking of Helibase where there are some NPCs that loiter around the hangar area and just sort of stand there while there are firefights and alarms going off in the hangar, and they just sort of stand there staring at a box or something. This happens on many other maps as well.

4. Vanilla and even more so in GMDX, I think... Wildly on the other hand, NPCs sometimes turn out to be master marksmen and quick-draw champions as well. Turn a corner too quick without peeking first and BAM! You're dead. Perfect headshot with no warning. Open a door and right there's an NPC in your face and BAM! You're dead. And these snipers with 30.06 rifles can make a shot that is totally impossible, pop your head up for 1 second over the ledge of a rooftop in Warehouse and BAM! You're dead. I'm not saying that shot can't be made, but like even the player has to AIM first. It's just frustrating sometimes because you'll have NPCs that are so stupid and oblivious on the one hand, staring at a wall or whatever. And then out of nowhere they can alert, draw, and nail a perfect headshot on you in like 1 second. Maybe this is part of the new "permanently high alert" piece from #3 above... I'm not really sure but either way it's somewhat frustrating because it's so unpredictable.

5. Vanilla - It seems like you can alert an NPC an infinite number of times and let them cool down and they will always fall for it. Like, how many times does an NPC need to hear a noise, and catch a glimpse of you, and maybe even see you and hunt you outright for a little while, before he decides to call for backup? It seems like after a certain number of "false alarms" NPCs should decide there's something definitely out there and do something about it. Maybe they go into a mode where they never stop hunting, or maybe they run to the next nearest NPC and then come back with a buddy, or maybe they just decide to sound the alarm, I don't know but it should be something.

6. GMDX - The new bots AI is evil. Wow, these things are deadly now. Not sure why some bots seem to have a "laser sight" but not all? It seems like the new bots are so fast and alert (and I think there are more of them too?) that a pure stealth approach is nearly impossible. You really have to be able to take them out, and woe to anybody that doesn't keep a stash of AP or explosives on hand at all times. To that point I would suggest giving another option by making the bots susceptible to hacking. With wireless strength you should be able to hack a bot with multitools at a distance and either reprogram or disable it. Or you could make that a perk unto itself. Or would it be possible to add bot controls to some security control panels? That would also make sense. I guess what I'm saying is there seems be very limited ways to take down bots, and one particular playstyle (stealth) suffers disproportionally from this.

7. GMDX or vanilla? Not sure... There's something weird that happens with certain flags getting "stuck" between reloads. I've noticed it a few different times but the one that comes to mind is Anna Navarre will "remember" that she is supposed to kill Lebedev if you've already played to that point and then reload the game to before she should know that. Quitting and relaunching the game is needed to reset the flag. Oh and GMDX changes to Anna Navarre... I won't give away any spoilers but wow - surprise!

8. GMDX or vanilla? Not sure... There are a few broken mission/conversation scripts - not sure if this falls under "AI" really or not but Paul will not get on the train after you talk to him in Hell's Kitchen following Battery Park. He just stands in front of the train doors forever like an idiot. Also, and I'm pretty sure this is vanilla but not sure how to fix it, if you're trying a non-lethal approach in Battery Park 9 times out of 10 the NSF and UNATCO will end up having a fight at the entrance to Castle Clinton and you'll get tagged as a "killer" even if you didn't kill anybody. That one is really annoying and I'm not sure if anybody has figured out how to fix.

I guess that's all for now. ;-)
Cybernetic pig
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Re: Deus Ex Advancement Mod v7 Release

Post by Cybernetic pig »

Sigh.

No, security cameras detecting carcasses doesn't open an immersion-breaking can of worms:

"Security camera is a thermal camera arranged in a public or private space to watch what goes on in their field of vision."
http://deusex.wikia.com/wiki/Security_camera

And no, they don't make any path impossible to take. They are still just a minor annoyance that are still very easy to bypass without use of any specialized tools.

Yes AI have more ammo on average, bringing it up closer to levels seen in every other game, although they still can run out. It is also variable: some NPCs have lots, the occasional NPC has a mag or two.
There are a number of reasons for this:

1. AI melee just doesn't work. If they were competent with melee I'd at least have to have hesitated whilst making this change. Unfortunately, they are not competent. They have trouble connecting with the player (player has to be standing still or cornered) and if the player cannot be reached (say, is hiding in a vent) then the AI stand around waving their melee weapon in the air confused. Deus Ex's AI melee behaviour is unacceptable for all except the karkain (and now doberman too, as I gave them a similar bump attack to the karkians).

2. The less pathfinding (when they actually CAN reach the player) NPCs have to do the better, since they aren't very competent there either.

3. General engaging gameplay. The majority of NPCs running out of bullets after a couple of shots doesn't make for very engaging encounters that have the potential to last more than 2 seconds.

Although gameplay is ultimately more important than simulation, sim design can be almost entirely disregarded too: don't forget that the player can carry hordes of ammo, in addition to other tools, so for what reason can an NPC not carry a few extra mags? And that's a rhetorical question.
NPCs should come running to the alarm from all over the level, security systems that were previously deactivated should get reactivated, the whole thing should take a long time to cool down. In particular if you set off an alarm in a particular room there should definitely not be any NPC in that room that doesn't react. I'm thinking of Helibase where there are some NPCs that loiter around the hangar area and just sort of stand there while there are firefights and alarms going off in the hangar, and they just sort of stand there staring at a box or something. This happens on many other maps as well.
One thing at a time. That would be a very challenging undertaking, and probably shouldn't even be attempted without the original voice actors.
Taking this on would be yet more stealth-focused behavior. Trying to get the NPCs to an acceptable, polished & engaging standard is my first priority. Stealth is done in that regard, combat still requires tweaks.
4. Vanilla and even more so in GMDX, I think... Wildly on the other hand, NPCs sometimes turn out to be master marksmen and quick-draw champions as well. Turn a corner too quick without peeking first and BAM! You're dead. Perfect headshot with no warning. Open a door and right there's an NPC in your face and BAM! You're dead. And these snipers with 30.06 rifles can make a shot that is totally impossible, pop your head up for 1 second over the ledge of a rooftop in Warehouse and BAM! You're dead. I'm not saying that shot can't be made, but like even the player has to AIM first. It's just frustrating sometimes because you'll have NPCs that are so stupid and oblivious on the one hand, staring at a wall or whatever. And then out of nowhere they can alert, draw, and nail a perfect headshot on you in like 1 second. Maybe this is part of the new "permanently high alert" piece from #3 above... I'm not really sure but either way it's somewhat frustrating because it's so unpredictable.
GMDX does very little to change this, and I don't see why it should. I'd also like to know what is unpredictable about it. If you go charging blindly around corners and cannot react to the resulting dangers fast enough, expect to be put down.
5. Vanilla - It seems like you can alert an NPC an infinite number of times and let them cool down and they will always fall for it. Like, how many times does an NPC need to hear a noise, and catch a glimpse of you, and maybe even see you and hunt you outright for a little while, before he decides to call for backup? It seems like after a certain number of "false alarms" NPCs should decide there's something definitely out there and do something about it. Maybe they go into a mode where they never stop hunting, or maybe they run to the next nearest NPC and then come back with a buddy, or maybe they just decide to sound the alarm, I don't know but it should be something.
Hmm. What I may do is give NPCs a total amount of "agitations". If greater than or equal to 4 sound or sighting-based agitations, they go for an alarm if one is nearby and can be reached.

Good, this conversation hasn't been a complete waste of time now ;)

Anyhow, you may be happy to know that a lot of AI features are being moved to the option menus, and AI behavior also scales based on difficulty level (originally the only thing affected by difficulty level was bullet damage), so you'll be able to customize the levels of intelligence & skill freely.
Also, and I'm pretty sure this is vanilla but not sure how to fix it, if you're trying a non-lethal approach in Battery Park 9 times out of 10 the NSF and UNATCO will end up having a fight at the entrance to Castle Clinton and you'll get tagged as a "killer" even if you didn't kill anybody. That one is really annoying and I'm not sure if anybody has figured out how to fix.
Hmm. This should be fixed. I'll have to do some more digging around.
rdaneel
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Re: Deus Ex Advancement Mod v7 Release

Post by rdaneel »

And no, they don't make any path impossible to take. They are still just a minor annoyance that are still very easy to bypass without use of any specialized tools.
Yeah, there's at least one somewhat early in the game. Believe me I wasted a couple hours of my life proving it.
"Security camera is a thermal camera arranged in a public or private space to watch what goes on in their field of vision."
http://deusex.wikia.com/wiki/Security_camera
Well then it makes no sense that "radar transparency" would make the player invisible to them.
GMDX does very little to change this, and I don't see why it should. I'd also like to know what is unpredictable about it. If you go charging blindly around corners and cannot react to the resulting dangers fast enough, expect to be put down.
What's unpredictable is that sometimes you come around a corner and the AI barks, draws, shoots a couple of times, and eventually starts hitting you. Other times the very first thing that happens is you're dead. Sometimes you open a door and the AI is staring at the wall. Other times you open the same door and the AI is standing right in front of it apparently waiting to shoot you immediately. You're saying this is vanilla and that's fine, I remember this from vanilla, especially the snipers in Warehouse but it seemed like it had been taken up a notch in GMDX as well. On the one hand I get your point, infiltrating a hostile environment is dangerous and be more careful. On the other hand, it's a game. A game is supposed to be fun. When the game punishes you in unpredictable and confusing ways - essentially, when you have no idea what you did wrong or how to correct it for next time - sometimes you just want to stop playing and go do something more productive with your time.

I'm not suggesting this is something you can or should address in GMDX, especially if it's vanilla behavior, I'm just answering your question about unpredictability and why it's frustrating.
Good, this conversation hasn't been a complete waste of time now ;)
Gee, thanks dude. I'm so glad I'm not a complete waste of your time. As I spend my hours helping you test your mod and making some pretty thoughtful suggestions it turns out that this is all an almost complete waste of your time. And I was just about to break down and offer to do art for you, even though I really can't afford the time myself, but I appreciate what you're doing here so much for the game and community - but if this how treat people then you can just screw off. This will be my last comment on this thread.
Cybernetic pig
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Re: Deus Ex Advancement Mod v7 Release

Post by Cybernetic pig »

rdaneel wrote: Yeah, there's at least one somewhat early in the game. Believe me I wasted a couple hours of my life proving it.
Well, there may be a couple of optional instances where a tool is required, but there are so many ways in which to deal with cameras that I do not see a problem either way: EMP grenade, sabot rounds, AP rounds, various explosives, radar trans aug, thermoptic camo, hiding behind a crate whilst pushing it along, spy drone detonation, multitools (with or without range), hacking (the majority of cams are hooked up to a local network), dashing past with speed enhancement...and those are the conventional means only. I really don't see what the problem is here, as I didn't with most of your complaints in the previous post.
What's unpredictable is that sometimes you come around a corner and the AI barks, draws, shoots a couple of times, and eventually starts hitting you. Other times the very first thing that happens is you're dead. Sometimes you open a door and the AI is staring at the wall. Other times you open the same door and the AI is standing right in front of it apparently waiting to shoot you immediately. You're saying this is vanilla and that's fine, I remember this from vanilla, especially the snipers in Warehouse but it seemed like it had been taken up a notch in GMDX as well. On the one hand I get your point, infiltrating a hostile environment is dangerous and be more careful. On the other hand, it's a game. A game is supposed to be fun. When the game punishes you in unpredictable and confusing ways - essentially, when you have no idea what you did wrong or how to correct it for next time - sometimes you just want to stop playing and go do something more productive with your time.
It's all predictable. Enemy location and state of awareness is telegraphed blatantly to the player through barks & footstep sounds. It's all logical. NPCs are more likely to spot you at closer ranges, and are also more accurate if at point blank range.
About the only thing confusing is when they stand there looking at walls, which gives a false sense of security, but the AI as in any other game must be studied & learnt. Once learnt, they are entirely predictable, dumb bots.
I will probably get them to stop staring at walls soon. Shouldn't be too hard to do.
I'm not suggesting this is something you can or should address in GMDX, especially if it's vanilla behavior, I'm just answering your question about unpredictability and why it's frustrating.
OK, aside from making them not stare at walls, what do you suggest I do?
Gee, thanks dude. I'm so glad I'm not a complete waste of your time. As I spend my hours helping you test your mod and making some pretty thoughtful suggestions it turns out that this is all an almost complete waste of your time. And I was just about to break down and offer to do art for you, even though I really can't afford the time myself, but I appreciate what you're doing here so much for the game and community - but if this how treat people then you can just screw off. This will be my last comment on this thread.
A rather douche-y comment I made, granted. Sounds to me like you're blaming the game/me for your own failings though. There are numerous instances where players of higher difficulties have said every death was a failing of their own, and so it should as that is what I specifically aim for.

Example:

"Pretty much everything except the story has been redone with amazing detail, and there is no sense of cheap deaths or rewards: everything is earned."
http://www.moddb.com/mods/gmdx/reviews/page/2

Also, if you are considering doing art work, especially animations, I'd be overjoyed and in your debt.
Cybernetic pig
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Re: Deus Ex Advancement Mod v7 Release

Post by Cybernetic pig »

New AI feature: http://www.moddb.com/mods/gmdx/videos/v80-ai

A new addition to v8.0 AI functionality: military-trained NPCs occasionally throw flares if they suspect the player to be hiding in relatively dark areas. This can also be disabled via an in-game options menu.
This video highlights the logic rather well, actually. I'm leaning out, and because it is relatively dark and the NPC isn't right in front of me, it takes him some time to spot me. He then throws the flare, which makes the area lighter, he's already walked a bit closer, and is already in the seeking state so he then sees me immediately when I pop out again. If you're running around corners and barging into people, the same should happen.
The only legitimate point you made was the snipers, which as in vanilla are quickdraw marksmen in that they like every NPC immediately draw and shoot when they spot you. I could add a delay as to when snipers can first fire, but that would remove a lot of the threat a sniper holds. I'll consider adding it for lower difficulty modes though.
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Re: Deus Ex Advancement Mod v7 Release

Post by Cybernetic pig »

http://www.moddb.com/mods/gmdx/videos/w ... e-shotguns

A video demonstrating some new shotgun features. The shotguns alone feature ~30 individual improvements, about half of which are noticeable in this video.

For those that have played v7 of GMDX, here's the shotgun updates since then:

-Shells reload one at a time, and reloading can be canceled mid-reload by pressing shoot.
-Shell casings have different skins based on ammo type.
-Updated bullet impact effects.
-The sawed-off shotgun has a headshot multiplier of 9 to give it another edge over the previously superior assault shotgun.
-Updated muzzle flash effects.
-Changed the rendering position and rotation of the sawed-off to what you see in the video.
-Some new sounds.
-The sawed off ejects shells when cocking the pump, not immediately upon firing.
-Shotguns knock objects around further than all other weapons (except explosives) in combination with the updated object physics.

I also nerfed the rubber bullet damage some.
Cybernetic pig
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Re: Deus Ex Advancement Mod v7 Release

Post by Cybernetic pig »

An option that can be toggled to get the toolbelt to behave as in Deus Ex: Invisible War, which is arguably superior functionality.
The vanilla toolbelt is also improved (although the improvement is not shown), so experiment to form a preference.

http://www.moddb.com/mods/gmdx/videos/i ... r-toolbelt
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